Confederate air force

re 37

Personally, I much prefer Confederate. Commemorative is not bad. What I dislike intensely and I note that you deliberately duck this point, is the element of spiteful compulsion so typical of the attitude and behaviour of the left wing nonentities who infest our society – on both side of the pond.

Make a point – certainly! Debate your point by all means. Convince by argument. Do not bulldoze your opinion just because you have the means to do so. By any interpretation, the CAF were blackmailed into acquiescence. How disgraceful is that.

John Green

John, having read this thread through including all your posts and replies to them I think you are becoming the “pot calling the kettle black”, and have dragged your own political views and prejudices into a simple debate over the CAF name change process, rather than others – as you accuse.

I actually consider the other debaters have provided convincing arguments based on facts (ie the quoting of the CAF’s own website as per the 2002 members vote), it seems to be you who continues to bulldoze your opinion without support of any facts?

I admire the CAF greatly, and understood the origins of the “Confederate” name for the organisation and in some ways its self “mocking” of a formal military organisation, and have never considered it in anyway linked to the north-south political divisions of the US or slavery, but I can imagine the word invokes such attitudes outside the southern states and it therefore could reduce corporate or philanthropic fundraising.

I understand that was the experience and justification for the name change by the CAF executive, and accepted by the membership in formal vote?

I am not aware of any “left wing lobby groups” black banning them, or applying “politically correct” public pressure on them to change their name, as you seem to constantly imply?

I’m not a member of the CAF, but understood like many other posters above who read WIX that the name change was a democratic decision inside the organisation, but also that it wasnt a unanomous decision and many members resented the name change.

I sub-consciously still remember/refer to them as the “Confederate” Air Force as I grew up knowing of them as that, but equally accept the organisations decision to position itself more seriously as a “Commemorative” flying museum to attract the funding such an operation requires.

This wonderful organisation puts two B-17s, a B-24 and the sole flying B-29 into the air, along with many other rare and high cost warbirds, it is the US equivalent of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight in its role, it seemingly exceeds the workload and asset base of the BOBMF, but all without the government funding, and is certainly worthy of support, regardless of what it calls itself.

The “Confederate” name was very suitable and apt to a privately funded group of southern pilots flying aircraft for fun and private preservation – all at their own cost.

However they evolved from a simple group of private owners, to a formal organisation with a museum focus, and collection and public display objectives, collective/organisational ownership of aircraft rather than private ownership, and costs far exceeding the individual owners or members contributions.

The “Commemorative” name is more suitable to a National organisation flying aircraft as a quasy National Flying Collection or Memorial Flight.

It is surprising that the CAF doesnt receive Federal Government or USAF funding support (despite the P-82 dispute) given the public relations and heritage preservation role they are performing.

The Marketing or re-branding is entirely understandable and simply part of the steps to ensure the organisation continues to operate successfully by accessing reliable sources of corporate funding, even if many, (including myself) looking fondly on its original name and simple origins.

I admire them regardless of any name they choose to operate under, its their achievements and ongoing success that really matters.

As I’m not a member I dont consider I have a say in their decisions to change the organisational name,

I assume your not a member either?

regards

Mark Pilkington

re 37

Personally, I much prefer Confederate. Commemorative is not bad. What I dislike intensely and I note that you deliberately duck this point, is the element of spiteful compulsion so typical of the attitude and behaviour of the left wing nonentities who infest our society – on both side of the pond.

Make a point – certainly! Debate your point by all means. Convince by argument. Do not bulldoze your opinion just because you have the means to do so. By any interpretation, the CAF were blackmailed into acquiescence. How disgraceful is that.

John Green

John, having read this thread through including all your posts and replies to them I think you are becoming the “pot calling the kettle black”, and have dragged your own political views and prejudices into a simple debate over the CAF name change process, rather than others – as you accuse.

I actually consider the other debaters have provided convincing arguments based on facts (ie the quoting of the CAF’s own website as per the 2002 members vote), it seems to be you who continues to bulldoze your opinion without support of any facts?

I admire the CAF greatly, and understood the origins of the “Confederate” name for the organisation and in some ways its self “mocking” of a formal military organisation, and have never considered it in anyway linked to the north-south political divisions of the US or slavery, but I can imagine the word invokes such attitudes outside the southern states and it therefore could reduce corporate or philanthropic fundraising.

I understand that was the experience and justification for the name change by the CAF executive, and accepted by the membership in formal vote?

I am not aware of any “left wing lobby groups” black banning them, or applying “politically correct” public pressure on them to change their name, as you seem to constantly imply?

I’m not a member of the CAF, but understood like many other posters above who read WIX that the name change was a democratic decision inside the organisation, but also that it wasnt a unanomous decision and many members resented the name change.

I sub-consciously still remember/refer to them as the “Confederate” Air Force as I grew up knowing of them as that, but equally accept the organisations decision to position itself more seriously as a “Commemorative” flying museum to attract the funding such an operation requires.

This wonderful organisation puts two B-17s, a B-24 and the sole flying B-29 into the air, along with many other rare and high cost warbirds, it is the US equivalent of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight in its role, it seemingly exceeds the workload and asset base of the BOBMF, but all without the government funding, and is certainly worthy of support, regardless of what it calls itself.

The “Confederate” name was very suitable and apt to a privately funded group of southern pilots flying aircraft for fun and private preservation – all at their own cost.

However they evolved from a simple group of private owners, to a formal organisation with a museum focus, and collection and public display objectives, collective/organisational ownership of aircraft rather than private ownership, and costs far exceeding the individual owners or members contributions.

The “Commemorative” name is more suitable to a National organisation flying aircraft as a quasy National Flying Collection or Memorial Flight.

It is surprising that the CAF doesnt receive Federal Government or USAF funding support (despite the P-82 dispute) given the public relations and heritage preservation role they are performing.

The Marketing or re-branding is entirely understandable and simply part of the steps to ensure the organisation continues to operate successfully by accessing reliable sources of corporate funding, even if many, (including myself) looking fondly on its original name and simple origins.

I admire them regardless of any name they choose to operate under, its their achievements and ongoing success that really matters.

As I’m not a member I dont consider I have a say in their decisions to change the organisational name,

I assume your not a member either?

regards

Mark Pilkington

Confederate AF

I’ve been in Houston since 1988 and have only been to the airshows at EFD/Ellington AFB. I have not ever stopped by the Lone Star Flight
Museum.

I located a lot of USAAF surplus parts dumped near Altus AFB back
circa 1986. I donated an “Altitude and Altimeter Handset” to the CONFEDERATE AIR FORCE MUSEUM in 1989.
It was about 12″ x 7″ x 7″ with 2 or 3 large Bakelite knobs to set Altitude,
Temp, and maybe Indicated Airspeed so you could get True Airspeed.

I have only been to the Confederate AF Museum in Harlingen, Tx one time when I arrived about 15 minutes before they closed. I have not been since they bugged out to Midland/Odessa.

I guess I should go there sometime to see if they have the Handset on display. It may have come from a B-29. ?

I found a Large piece of B-29 fuselage there with a serial tag on it for
B29-44-70064. I wish I had kept the piece of fuselage. It was about 8′ x 15′. In the last year or so, I searched the serial and found 44-70064 was used as *PART* of a B-29 on display at Castle AFB in California.

Mike

I once saw a bumper sticker on a pickup that said

“Why be “Politically Correct” when you can be Right!

Confederate AF

I’ve been in Houston since 1988 and have only been to the airshows at EFD/Ellington AFB. I have not ever stopped by the Lone Star Flight
Museum.

I located a lot of USAAF surplus parts dumped near Altus AFB back
circa 1986. I donated an “Altitude and Altimeter Handset” to the CONFEDERATE AIR FORCE MUSEUM in 1989.
It was about 12″ x 7″ x 7″ with 2 or 3 large Bakelite knobs to set Altitude,
Temp, and maybe Indicated Airspeed so you could get True Airspeed.

I have only been to the Confederate AF Museum in Harlingen, Tx one time when I arrived about 15 minutes before they closed. I have not been since they bugged out to Midland/Odessa.

I guess I should go there sometime to see if they have the Handset on display. It may have come from a B-29. ?

I found a Large piece of B-29 fuselage there with a serial tag on it for
B29-44-70064. I wish I had kept the piece of fuselage. It was about 8′ x 15′. In the last year or so, I searched the serial and found 44-70064 was used as *PART* of a B-29 on display at Castle AFB in California.

Mike

I once saw a bumper sticker on a pickup that said

“Why be “Politically Correct” when you can be Right!

The B-17G at Galveston is operated by the Lone Star Flight Museum. Check out the advert they regularly place in Flypast for details about the other aircraft which offer rides ( B-25 / P-51 / T-6 / Stearman ).

If you want to fly in a warbird at Airsho at Midland ~ be sure to either book before travel or head straight into the CAF hangar first thing on Saturday. ( B-17 / B-25 / B-29 were all doing good business last October )

🙂

Hi there I am coming out to Texas in october and I’m flying in the B17 from Galveston which museum do you belong to in Texas ?

Hunterxf382

Well, we know why that is ! The warped thinking of the social and political engineers had to be placated otherwise a bit of funding might have dried up. For most of us, regardless of what appears on the letter headings, it will always be the Confederate Air Force. Long may it be so.

John Green

Actually, was not the politicians that did it, but the sponsors.
They did not want to sponsor something that could get the ire of the social and political engineers, or at least the official reason I been told.

Regardless, it is a much more appropriate name.

Confederate Air Force was cute name, but the FAA will tell you flying an airplane is very serious business.

AdlerTag’s post is on target too.

BTW, if you are in Texas, you MUST visit the other CAF branches in Houston (2 of them!), Dallas (with Cavanugh), San Marcos (south of Austin), and others.

Let me know, I am member and can show you around!

Was there an option of voting to keep the Confederate Air Force name?

Can anyone advise please?

With the name change, did they also drop the Confederate flag?

Also, is the Douglas Bader Wing still extant?

re 37

Personally, I much prefer Confederate. Commemorative is not bad. What I dislike intensely and I note that you deliberately duck this point, is the element of spiteful compulsion so typical of the attitude and behaviour of the left wing nonentities who infest our society – on both side of the pond.

Make a point – certainly! Debate your point by all means. Convince by argument. Do not bulldoze your opinion just because you have the means to do so. By any interpretation, the CAF were blackmailed into acquiescence. How disgraceful is that.

John Green

“The organization was originally known as the Confederate Air Force. Following a membership vote in 2001 and made effective on January 1, 2002, the organization is now known as the Commemorative Air Force.”

Was there an option of voting to keep the Confederate Air Force name?

I would suggest that those who still call it the Confederate Air Force do so out of ignorance.

I know of plenty that do so deliberately.

Ryan

What ever happened to ‘Fudpucker World Airways’ ?

Mark

I take it then that this isn’t true then

“The organization was originally known as the Confederate Air Force. Following a membership vote in 2001 and made effective on January 1, 2002, the organization is now known as the Commemorative Air Force.”

That appears to be a vote, a sort of democratic thing that the members decided. If some decided that the use of “Confederate” was inappropriate then that is a good thing. It may have made the organization rather more attractive to contributors. That, I would suggest, is actually a good thing.

Nowadays I think that rather than a bizarre left wing plot, people are more aware of their past, its symbology and its meaning to others. Most have moved on, some it appears have not.

Good to see the Daily Mail-ist phrase “PC brigade” in use though. It would seem Daily Mail-ist right-wing paranoia is also in evidence.

I would suggest that those who still call it the Confederate Air Force do so out of ignorance.

Don’t duck the point. The Confederate Air Force was forced, by an act of deliberate and malicious spite, inspired by politically motivated, left wing activists in control of funding budgets to change their historic and indeed heroic title, to something more acceptable to the PC brigade.

Well that worked didn’t it ? The Confederate Air Force continues to be known as such by its members and the wider public, regardless of what appears on its letterheadings. Funding continues and enables the most successful historic aircraft preservation organisation in the world as well as the largest to proceed with what it does best.

John Green

If it was a case of “the lesser of two evils” – really difficult to make a choice

Why is it a choice? – nobody had to make that choice – your hypothetical choices are bizarre to say the least. Indeed your point proves mine exactly – that there is some irony in the original name and I doubt that I am the only one that has noticed this.

The new name of the Commemorative Air Force is a good name and comes with great deal less baggage than Confederate. The membership obviously thought so as well; after all they were the ones that voted for a change. If the original name was a “joke” then it wouldn’t have been a big deal to have it changed would it.

Re 30

Hardly any difference between the relative values and meanings of the two “FREEDOMS”. One global and one almost national. If it was a case of “the lesser of two evils” – really difficult to make a choice – Isn’t that right Arthur?

John Green

Great! The best of all possible worlds! A thread that combines warbirds AND the origins and causes of the Civil War. Let the tumult begin …

Interesting topic. I can however see some irony in an organization that wishes to keep alive the names of those who died preserving “FREEDOM” named after a an alliance of states whose purpose was to deny those freedoms to a section of the population.

Beg to differ in some cases… There were plenty of Southerners NOT fighting for slavery. Lincoln himself said that if he could preserve the union without freeing the slaves he would. The Emancipation Proclamation was a brilliant strategic move to rebrand the real issues of the Constitution and states rights vs. the Federals in Washington, DC. My ancestors in Virginia would have never joined the Confederacy if Lincoln had not called for volunteers for an invasion.

Ryan

Cooo,
Remember that 70’s Panorama episode where (Lefty Gardner??) piloted the Mustang painted in stars and stripes and a tinted canopy did an aerobatic routine then landed on his driveway before taxiing up to his house and parked up on his lawn?!? That was amazing and influencial, if I won the lottery….

I’ve got a DVD of that somewhere, “Colonel Culpepper’s Flying Circus”. I think I’m going to have to have a look for it.