Confiscated WW2 Aircraft Instruments

It would also be good to have a general guide as to which instruments contain what substances.

It will be interesting to have Air Ministry’s take on this, generally.

As a matter of interest, I loaned some instruments (actually, not very important or significant to me personally) to an aviation museum some while ago. When I went to collect them at the end of the loan period they were in “quarantine” inside a lead box under HSE instructions. I cannot recall what was there….although it included a P8 compass I think. Never did get them back, but not worth the hassle of even trying to!

Gosh…..had “the Few” gained even the slightest idea of the mortal danger they were in before they even met the enemy then they would have surely baled out of their dangerous cockpits long before the Luftwaffe were even in sight!!

Due to recent events of the threat of terrorism border customs are a lot more stringent and sophisticated in checking packages now, a lot of this tuff is being detected aand stopped at the borders and confiscated, sign of times I’m afraid. We are not at the stage of the old bill knocking on one’s door at the moment. A lot of the remaining aerojumbles are not allowing old instruments to be sold (in theory). It all seems downhill at the moment for instruments and panels.

I am slowly preparing my 2010 exhibition (trailer and Spitfire) and already thinking to remove and maybe scrap 2 instrument panels and several wwII instruments. I cannot afford to be jumped on by an over zealous H&S person when I pitch up at an event throughout the year. Sadly it comes to this as it is only a matter of time when it’s ‘one of us’ in the dock for the same type of offence.

We need to know what is and what isn’t acceptable, it appears to be a secret to the knowledgeable on this forum as this question has been asked on other threads and avoided.

I work on the basis that any amount of radiation, over and above the normal background level, as detected by my Über-cheap, “Chernobyl-Special” geiger counter is unlikely to be acceptable in this H&S dominated world, and I act accordingly.

I have no specialist training. I have never worked in the industry. I am simply an enthusiast like many other folks on this forum.

I have, however, taken the time to study the subject and have built up a fairly extensive knowledge through research. I reckon I can tell most “hot” instruments just by studying them: the geiger counter is there simply to demonstrate this to others less knowledgable.

Why haven’t you done the same?

Luminous instrument faces are considered a hazard in aircraft in museums, what is the situation regarding those fitted to airworthy aircraft and held as spares. Can the overhaul agents handle them safely during the overhaul process.

Richard

Meanwhile I shall continue to take my geiger counter to the aerojumbles and Cockpitfest and annoy you all by pointing out how hot some of your bits and pieces are!

We need to know what is and what isn’t acceptable, it appears to be a secret to the knowledgeable on this forum as this question has been asked on other threads and avoided.

At the RAF Museum, while researching our book, we were allowed 15 minutes inside the (instrument-less) Supermarine Stranraer and not allowed into the Seagull V (Walrus) at all, although we were able to shoot through the cockpit window from a provided ladder. That’d be about 2000. The issue was specifically stated to be radioactive instruments.

The Canadian Aviation Museum showed me a quarantine area for their ‘hot’ instruments on a visit in about 2002.

Interesting case, and I don’t think our Dutch friend is going to have a good time.

“My second concern is that I am completely broke, for years I have spent every euro I had for this fascinating hobby.”
Ooops. Hobbies should remain under your control, not vice versa.

Regards,

I think I am right in saying that the USAF have removed certain instruments from “loan” airframes in the UK and I think the RAFM have done likewise….although some of our museum friends could doubtless confirm?

How many people have died, are forecast to die, been mamed or had their lives shortened by exposure to these instruments?

I’m not au fait with the situation in The Netherlands so can only really speculate.

The fact that it was the police who knocked on the poor man’s door, suggests to me that the action was more to do with anti-terrorism (as Runway06 has already mentioned) than public health concerns.

There has long been a theory that Johnny Terrorist might go round all the aerojumbles, buying up enough radium painted dials to make a dirty bomb – nothing that would cause massive death or destruction, but just enough to scatter radio-active material over a wide area, resulting in major disruption and a prolonged clean up (imagine something like this happening at Heathrow, for example).

That fear certainly seems to be behind some of the actions I’ve heard about in the U.K., but how real the threat is I wouldn’t like to say (er, sub-zero?).

I hope common sense prevails and he gets his (no doubt very valuable) collection back, albeit with lots of advice on how to store it safely.

Meanwhile I shall continue to take my geiger counter to the aerojumbles and Cockpitfest and annoy you all by pointing out how hot some of your bits and pieces are!

This is not only alarming news for WW2 aircraft instrument collectors. Also many post war jets used luminous instruments. For example the F-104 Starfighter has a lot of luminous instruments in the cockpit.

Perspex can be an acceptable barrier – it all depends on the type of radiation. For some sources a sheet of paper would work!!

People should also remember that it isn’t just instruments that are an issue: escape compasses, certain turbine blades, some escape route & fire extinguisher markers etc.

At the RAF Museum, while researching our book, we were allowed 15 minutes inside the (instrument-less) Supermarine Stranraer and not allowed into the Seagull V (Walrus) at all, although we were able to shoot through the cockpit window from a provided ladder. That’d be about 2000. The issue was specifically stated to be radioactive instruments.

The Canadian Aviation Museum showed me a quarantine area for their ‘hot’ instruments on a visit in about 2002.

Interesting case, and I don’t think our Dutch friend is going to have a good time.

“My second concern is that I am completely broke, for years I have spent every euro I had for this fascinating hobby.”
Ooops. Hobbies should remain under your control, not vice versa.

Regards,

Ah! So if you were allowed to shoot through the perspex then obviously perspex is the new international standard for radiological protection? 😀
Forget lead! Next time I go for an X-Ray I shall demand perspex underpants.

Can I remind people that in part we’ve been ‘here’ before on this topic:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97355&highlight=health

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=96695&highlight=health&page=2

As has been said before the legislation isn’t going to get easier or go away.

I understand that one of the previous anomalies, the watch repair sector is also now coming under the legislation.

IMHO if the previously mentioned events; that we all participate in are to continue, things will undoubtedly have to change.

not only planes

The guages on WWII vehicles were also luminous. You can see that a radioactive warning sticker has been attached to the speedometer in the jeeps in the Land Warfare hall at Duxford

A company here in California was effectively put out of business when the feds seized all his instruments..

With all due respect, I don’t think anyone is keeping anything “secret”.

Getting meaningful guidance and information can be a challenge, though.

I would be surprised if, for example, the BAPC have not issued some sort of guidance. Have they? Someone will know! Equally, I expect there is guidance from people like the Association of Independent Museums and, perhaps, the Museums & Galleries Commission. That there is information out there is a certainty. Its just a case of researching it.

Local authorities/HSE might be worth talking to….although be aware that this could trigger a visit that may have “consequences”.

Finally, there is stuff from HSE here:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/radiation/ionising/legalbase.htm

Yes, there is confusion and it can be a bit of a minefield – and I think different agencies have different standards/yardsticks or else interpret things more/less vigorously.

Some, I think, are “in denial” that this is an issue. It does not matter what one thinks about the danger/risk – perceived or otherwise. The fact of the matter is that this IS an issue and those involved in the sphere need to take proper account of it. As a past and (possibly!) future event organiser I know that I have. As someone who has in the past sold instruments etc on E-Bay, it is something I would no longer countenance (a) dealing in or (b) selling on e-bay or anywhere else.

Yes, for an example ther might be huge differences saftey wise between a Spitfire, Hunter, and Harrier cockpit re levels.

As a basic question though, can an instrument panel really push out as much radiation as some houses have existing within them naturally?

Exactly, and it keeps being evaded here.

Because some of us haven’t a clue how to.
That is what we are trying to ask, some of you do seem to know the relevent details but there is this real reluctance to pass around the info.
There is mention of ‘safe levels’, ‘guidelines’, ‘knowing what is right’, ‘recent actions’, and ‘the authorities’, none of this means anything to me or some others here.
The real grey issue seems to be actual materials used, and the date ranges they may have been used.
Don’t forget guages are collected by alot of people from teenage boys upwards, and we don’t all have the gen and geiger counters.

On another note, I’m guessing there could be severe claims repercussions by opening up and allowing the public to sit in our cockpits?

In this litigious society there might be a degree of caution about appearing to give ‘definitive’ advice and then seeing people act on that advice. Until quite recently I thought that I had a reasonable understanding of the legislation, but that understanding might not be 100% hence why my personal posts on here and in PMs have been ‘guarded’.

There may even be some ‘confusion’ over whether individuals can be or need to be licensed.

As to your last point about cockpit access, yes it is an issue that needs checking and where necessary controlling. Various controls can be used i.e. restrict access or remove offending items.