Connie Edwards' Spitfire MH415 and Buchons up on Platinum Fighters

So the prospect of 2 twin seat 109s then?
http://www.meiermotors.com/en/aircraft/messerschmitt-bf109/157-messerschmitt-bf109-g-12.html
wait years then 2 come along at once….

What I meant to say is that the aircraft have gone thru minor changes since leaving the RAF / Spanish Air Force , most noteably being the Hollywood paint schemes.
They are not “untouched time capsules” but pretty close

But they are 1960’s film set time capsules 🙂 which is of interest to many and I agree with Bruce that these are candidates for very sympathetic return to flight. The simple answer is if you buy them you can do what you please with them.

About time these aircraft were given the chance to breathe again. Personally I have always found it sad that these have been locked away for so long. No disrespect to Mr Edwards, they were his to do with as he pleased of course but that’s my feelings.

If I remember correctly a quick peek into your collection of Flypast issues from late 1999 into 2000 will reveal the last time he tried to sell them all.

Hope they are more successful this time round

TS

It’s his opinion, but with all due respect he was never a combat pilot so I take it with a pinch of salt.

Jeffrey Quill wrote “Nearly all our engagements with Me 109s took place at around 20,000 – 25,000 ft. The Spitfire had the edge over them in speed and climb, and particularly in turning circle”. Al Deere said “My experience over Dunkirk had taught me that when attacked the best counter was to go into a right turn. In this manoeuvre, the Spitfire was infinitely superior to the Messerschmitt, and so long as one remained in the turn, the enemy pilot could not bring his guns to bear”.

He’s right in that the 109 was very well balanced aircraft with a good rate of roll and higher rate of climb, but none of these factors is decisive on its own. CE is a vastly experienced pilot but I’ll take the words of Quill and Deere on this. That said, the 109 probably did turn better than the Mustang

I find interesting his views from 4.20 onwards regarding the 109 being “head & shoulders” over the P-51 & Spitfire.
Strange no one has commented on that.

Here is MH415 after a paint strip and respray in 1973 flying over Big Spring Texas.

I remember with a smile that when Connie gave me this shot in the UK, my wife asked if his ranch might be down there somewhere.

Looking at the un-cropped 10×8 he drawled…..” Yeah, that’s all my ranch”.

Mark

Hmm, that very much depends on how it is done. When I started in this game, it was commonplace to change skins, intercostals, engines and all manner of other parts. I think we have moved on. I see MH415 as a good opportunity for a part conservation, part restoration, with the goal of a reliable flying aeroplane.

Absolutely agree but leaving them “as is” ( their current condition) would not be a wise investment

I don’t think any of these aircraft were restored in the 60s, in terms of preservation – they had been in service and were made airworthy for the film. Some of that work was workmanlike, as per the cutting down of the BBMF Mk XIX’s prop.

What I meant to say is that the aircraft have gone thru minor changes since leaving the RAF / Spanish Air Force , most noteably being the Hollywood paint schemes.
They are not “untouched time capsules” but pretty close

Agreed, Bruce. Some of the older restorations are Trigger’s Brooms. It would be good to see MH415 not done that way.

The aircraft will be a better investment for the new owners if they are fully restored.

Hmm, that very much depends on how it is done. When I started in this game, it was commonplace to change skins, intercostals, engines and all manner of other parts. I think we have moved on. I see MH415 as a good opportunity for a part conservation, part restoration, with the goal of a reliable flying aeroplane.

I don’t think any of these aircraft were restored in the 60s, in terms of preservation – they had been in service and were made airworthy for the film. Some of that work was workmanlike, as per the cutting down of the BBMF Mk XIX’s prop.

While this is a wonderful collection of aircraft, the prices that Mr Edwards is quoting are really unrealistic
for the condition they are in .
Every one of those aircraft are in need of a ground up restoration if they are to ever fly again.
While the B of B movie is of interest to many, preserving them as such would not be a wise investment.
Remember they are not time capsules from WW2 but examples of 1960s restorations
The aircraft will be a better investment for the new owners if they are fully restored.

Mike J – Absolutely, I have bought vehicles like that myself. A friend beat me to a really rough Enfield previously owned by Barnes Wallis. We didn’t need to see that vehicle prettied up, as “experts” (ha!) we knew what we were looking at and what would be needed to restore it sympathetically. That’s the point; patina does sell but generally only at a specialist level. If you’re selling a 10 year old everyday Ford, you need to make it shiny and as good as you possibly can.

Trolley Aux – exactly.

No need to clean them at all, the person who buys them or one will know what is required and does not need it shiny shiny, I would love one of them as is, a time capsule of the film.

I have seen quite a number of unrestored cars offered at high-end auctions still with the dust and grime from ‘the barn’ on them. All part of the patina, all part of ‘the story’, all part of the mystique.

I think you misunderstood the point I was making about the presentation of the aircraft. The paint is part of the story, certainly, but it’s not historically important in itself as Mark12 pointed out. The aircraft has a patina which is important but my point was that unlike selling a car on eBay, buyers of this sort of machine are professionals who aren’t swayed by a shiney coat of paint. It’s a fundamental rule of selling motorbikes and cars to present them as well as possible as “shiney bike syndrome” sells; most sales are made the moment the buyer sees it. That’s not the case with selling a Spitfire!

…the sale will be at a professional level which means dust and old paint are fairly irrelevant.

Absolutely not. The patina is all part of ‘the story’, which is what is being promoted as much as the artefact itself. Every high-end collector (car or aircraft) seems to love a good ‘barn find’ story. There are plenty of restored aircraft, such as Butch Schroeder’s F-6D Mustang, that are still described as ‘barn finds’, even though they were stored and known about for years in a similar way to Connie Edwards’ collection.

Oh yes, but 30+ years outdoors in the uk makes for something different from 45 years in a Texas barn! I restore old motorbikes and working on ones I’ve brought in from the US, or Italy is so different from ones that have been here all their lives! Such a pleasure to have fasteners that aren’t fused into a corroded, immovable lump!

Certainly a fresh coat of paint would have been odd. Ultimately though, this isn’t selling an old Ford Escort. There are only a limited numbers of buyers for this sort of aircraft and the sale will be at a professional level which means dust and old paint are fairly irrelevant.

Do hope so. It should be in much better condition than some of the Tim Routis ex-gate guards but it was one of the more heavily used BOB film machines and I seem to recall some of the work done to keep them going was a bit rough and ready.

I wonder why they didn’t at least give it a proper clean up for the photographs – you wouldn’t try to sell a second hand car without shining it up as much as possible, so why would you leave a multi million pound aircraft covered in dust and oil?

I think you’d be surprised at just how good most of the aircraft Tim and Clive selected actually were. RW382 was only slightly poorer than the one we were discussing, as was TB252. Although HFL didn’t restore TE476, it too was in very good order.

Later on, we got to work on some of the aircraft that were left behind – believe me, Tim chose very well!

Personally, I am always surprised that when people sell cars on ebay as ‘Barn Finds’, that they rarely clean them up first. However, with aircraft that are relatively well known and documented, eyebrows may be raised in they appeared with a fresh coat of paint and polish!

Bruce