Continental Express down in Buffalo

When at the interview do I refer to this great company as expressJet or continental express?

Neither. Continental Express is a brand operated by several companies; ExpressJet, Colgan, Gulfstream Intl., Chautauqua and CommutAir Airlines. The company in this accident was Colgan Airlines.

That is widespread, not only the USA. I remember being obliged to fly 14 sectors in one day in a B727. We started at 7am and ended at 2 am the next morning. It wasn’t the only time either. It was that or find another job which I did eventually. This was in Africa by the way, where duty time exceedences are very common as the authorities are very slack. It should never happen in third world countries, let alone in the USA. What you mention above is criminal. 50 innocent people who placed their faith in the airline wiped out because of greed.

In addition to duty time limitations, there should be a minimum wage law as aircrew provide a professional service and have the lives of many people in their hands. Furthermore, training standards should be addressed, it takes 7 years to become a doctor, but one can obtain an ATP in as little as 2 years.

insunty09

What relevance has your post got to do with anything regarding the crash of the Continental Q400?

Keep it on topic please.

Dean

Continental Express down in Buffalo

When at the interview do I refer to this great company as expressJet or continental express?

Companies have argued that they offer low pay because they are only a stepping stone for pilots in their careers until them move on to larger carriers. Actually one of the Colgan managers stated that this was the case at their company during the initial hearings. Pilots time and time again have accepted these payrates because they hope that this stage of their career is temporary and they’ll move to a larger carrier soon. Unfortunately by pilots accepting these low paying jobs only justifies the company paying so little. Plus, with the economy and industry being in such bad condition over the last 10 years many pilots have found themselves in these jobs for a lot longer than they originally planned. Actually the pay at the legacy carriers have taken such a beating in that same time frame that the pay doesn’t get much better after moving up. Most majors start their pilots at $30,000. Pathetic.

I’m making no excuses for digging up this thread – today I read an article on this accident which was both fascinating and disturbing at the same time. The first officer had been taken on by the airline at a starting salary of $17,000. She had managed to increase this amount slightly by the time of the crash, but it was still not enough to enable her to afford to live in the area where she was based by the airline.

On the day of the accident, she had flown across the country, dead-heading on a FedEx cargo flight, where she got the only sleep that she would get before her shift. The captain got about four hours of sleep in the airline’s crew room that day. CVR transcripts reveal the two crew discussing fatigue during the flight, and it is quite plain that neither of them was really in a fit state to be flying.

By comparison, a cleaner in a restaurant can also expect about $17k per year, whereas a carpenter could earn up to $42,000. The author of this article, in the RAE journal, stated that his belief was that all flight deck crews should be paid the same, and although I don’t necessarily agree with that sentiment (why would anyone want to move up to the big stuff if there were no incentive) it seems clear that at least in the USA, there would appear to be a culture amongst the feeder airlines that they will pay crews as little as possible because a) there is a recession on and many pilots will take whatever they can get, and b) it keeps the shareholders happy.

Just speculating here, but is it possible that the autopilot was handling the plane when due to ice accumulation it decided to disconnect? The autopilot will only go so far before it decides the controls are safer in the pilot’s hands then they are flying on autopilot.

This disconnet would lead to an unexpected roll. The yoke would be in neutral position while the flight controls, up to A/P disconnect, would be banking sharply to counter for the ice buildup. The result would be that the flight controls would go back to neutral, thus rolling the plane the second the autopilot disconnect alarm goes off in the cockpit.

There is no automatic trim on the Q400 in Roll & Yaw, only in Pitch

Peter’s post above definately seems to sum up my latest feelings, ie the autopilot could auto disconnect if it couldn’t ‘cope’ anymore. Deano will undoubtedly know way more than most of us, though.

The autopilot will drop out if the pitch trim tries to go beyond it’s limits, there will be a “jolt” but not to the extent of making the aircraft pitch so much that it will enter an uncontrollable dive.

I hear That the cause was the Auto Pilot was still switched on?

Do you mean still switched on with a significant ice build up? There is no way that the cause of this is because the autopilot was still on under normal circumstances.
Answering a question on page 1 it is only a recommendation to fly manually in icing conditions. In severe icing conditions it has to be done. (That’s our policy anyway). If we had to disconnect in all icing conditions we’d spend 5 months of the year in manual.

The biggest indication of significant ice build up is a drop in IAS (10-20kts) for the given power setting. The ice protection system is very robust in the Dash and seems to cope well in most conditions.
I’ve only encountered severe icing once coming out of Paris, scary stuff when you can’t shift it, you just have to get out of it, that may involve going down into warmer air, or invariably going up out of it.

WD

Believe me the wings are located a fair way back on the Q400 when viewed from the flight deck, it is a neck craning exercise to be able to see the wing, and even then we can only see up to the Spinner on the prop if we have a double jointed neck, from there inwards it’s impossible to see anything.

After Roselawn and now this…it would seem that that sort of system of ice being cracked by boots on the leading edge leaves a lot to be desired

I flew with boots for a few years and never had any problem. In some ways I like it better as it allows the pilots to monitor how quickly ice is building up. A more modern hot wing doesn’t do that. On our jet the system turns on automatically so it can be difficult to deduce how fast the ice is building. I would guess though that there isn’t a turbo prop out there where the pilots can’t watch their wings while most jet airliners have their wings aft of the pilots view.

I hear That the cause was the Auto Pilot was still switched on?

After Roselawn and now this…it would seem that that sort of system of ice being cracked by boots on the leading edge leaves a lot to be desired

Is it me or has the NTSB already tried and convicted the crew?

Actually in the interviews I’ve seen the NTSB spokesman has been very clear that no conclusions are being made and reiterated that several times. They are just presenting the facts as they have them.

The media is coming to their own conclusions and spreading their poor judgments as facts. Even our local TV news went on about how the crew was not allowed to use the autopilot in any icing conditions. Please. :rolleyes:

Is it me or has the NTSB already tried and convicted the crew?

Blimey, the NTSB are certainly much more forthcoming with information post accident than the AAIB seem to be.

Peter’s post above definately seems to sum up my latest feelings, ie the autopilot could auto disconnect if it couldn’t ‘cope’ anymore. Deano will undoubtedly know way more than most of us, though.

Just speculating here, but is it possible that the autopilot was handling the plane when due to ice accumulation it decided to disconnect? The autopilot will only go so far before it decides the controls are safer in the pilot’s hands then they are flying on autopilot.

This disconnet would lead to an unexpected roll. The yoke would be in neutral position while the flight controls, up to A/P disconnect, would be banking sharply to counter for the ice buildup. The result would be that the flight controls would go back to neutral, thus rolling the plane the second the autopilot disconnect alarm goes off in the cockpit.

If I am not mistaken this has happened in the past with the ATR and A320s?

“Pilots are recommended to fly manually in icy weather, he said.” (Steve Chealander, a spokesman for the National Transportation Safety Board; NTSB.)

I think this is where they’ll try to hang the crew out to dry, on recommended. Recommended isn’t a necessity but I’m sure the argument will be made contrary to that. From what I’ve read hand flying the airplane was recommended in light to moderate icing conditions while it was a must in severe icing conditions. Obviously the icing conditions were discussed by the crew in the decent but were they able to discern the intensity correctly? Plenty of Monday morning quarterbacking will follow regarding what this crew should have done I’m sure.

As more infomation comes to light, it looks like the cause of this tragedy could be down to a combination of factors ranging from the weather and possible human error?

According to the BBC: “Fatal US plane ‘was on autopilot'”

“Pilots are recommended to fly manually in icy weather, he said.” (Steve Chealander, a spokesman for the National Transportation Safety Board; NTSB.)

Full article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7891770.stm

Is this true?:confused:

I suppose Deano would be the best one to answer this question, seeing as he flies on this particular type of a/c, or can anyone else shed any light on this matter?

They picked it for it’s speed. Nobody runs an airline like Flybe. And I must say I’m impressed at the way they manage the fleet, getting all A/c back to home base for overnighters. The picked Emb. for the speed too.
Obviously, size and range and fuel drinking count too.

Flybe’s Q400’s to tend experience a lot of tech problems from NCL but i have never heard of one returning to the airport due to an serious problems?

When i went to work i was expecting severe delays or a/c changes to the Embraers or the 146 but they ran the Q400’s as normal, and we only had one passenger who asked if they were grounded.

I guess the only comfort for the FO’s family is that she died doing something she loved.

May she and all lost rest in peace.

Initial press conference by the NTSB. They share initial data gathered from the FDR and CVR. Obviously no speculation on accident on their part.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/29186499#29186499

The NASA facility here in Cleveland does extensive aircraft icing testing using their laboratory and a Twin Otter as well as a S-3 Viking. They put together this video to discuss Tailplane icing and the effects on aircraft stability. The most similar aspect with the facts provided by the NTSB is how the effect of lowering the gear and adding flaps greatly amplify the degraded tail effectiveness. The Q400 was lost 1 minute after adding their flaps and lowering their gear.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946

Very early information released from the investigators suggest severe ice buildup caused severe pitch and roll effects. Reminds me very much of that ATR72 crash in Roselawn in 1994 where ice built up as the plane was holding, causing it to crash out of control. 🙁

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7889764.stm?lss

Roselawn all over again…those were my initial thoughts as well

Very early information released from the investigators suggest severe ice buildup caused severe pitch and roll effects. Reminds me very much of that ATR72 crash in Roselawn in 1994 where ice built up as the plane was holding, causing it to crash out of control. 🙁

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7889764.stm?lss