Control Column From Tom Gleave's Hurricane P3115

No same one..

FLIGHT international, 2 March 1967
Page 308

Twenty-seven-year-old Mystery Solved
The history of the remains of a Hurricane
Mk 1 near Biggin Hill, Kent, the
subject of recent newspaper reports, is
at last known. Locals and a number of
enthusiasts have known for many years
that the aircraft lay north-east of the airfield
on a wooded hillside near Downe
village; it now consists only of the
engine, part of the starboard wing, bits
of elevator, and the reduction gear.
Attempts to trace the pilot proved
unrewarding until last week, when
Gp Capt T. P. Gleave (author of the
article “The Battle of Britain” in Flight
for September 16, 1965) read the news
stories and concluded that it was his
machine. It crashed on August 31, 1940,
after Gp Capt Gleave took off from
Kenley, with seven other Hurricanes of
253 Sqn, to intercept a raid on the sector
stations of Biggin Hill and Kenley. Following
a pass at a Junkers Ju88 his
aircraft was hit in a fuel tank and caught
fire. Badly burned, he baled out over
Cudham, but remembers seeing his aircraft,
in a flat spin, crash in a wood. On
that particular day his own machine was
unserviceable, so he had borrowed an-ij
other and had no record of its serial
number in his log-book.

Due to copyright reasons I will only post soem highlight.. if you want thye full article PM me.

1) Found by members of one of the principal flying clubs at Biggin Hill, Kent, Aerodrome on Sunday 19th Feb 1967
2) Found “much of the fuselage, half of a wing and the complete Merlin
engine. A valuable find was the constant speed unit and reduction gear”

Or is it another Hurricane as ??

A) They say found @Woodland near Keston’

They said “It seem likely that this was a Hurricane from III Squadron Kenley, and one of two that were unaccounted for. If so, this was one which was
following a Dornier or Heinkel on August 18 1940″

But Gleave shot down … 31st August 1940

The Times, Friday, Feb 24, 1967; pg. 1; Issue 56874; col E
“War Hurricane found in wood”

Article dated Sevenoaks “Feb 23”

Give me a few hours and I will get the gist of article

Control column from Tom Gleave’s Hurricane P3115

I seem to remember that the Daily Express ran an article about the find of the Hurricane at the time (1968) and that the article contained a couple of photos of T. G. along with a part – was it the spade grip? I think that I saved the clipping somewhere. I’ll try and dig the article out.
Does anyone else remember this or is old age playing tricks?

Simon is probably right in what he says….and, in fact, with his Sotheby’s knowledge I wouldn’t doubt his comments at all. So, it could be that the Sotheby’s story is as much fantasy as is the “provenance” of this item, sadly, unless the sale date is much later than suggested. And if it was, then it would surely appear in some of the Sotheby’s back catalogues – which I don’t think it does.

Spade Grip and Sotheby’s

I doubt very much if Sotheby’s would sell an item like that in the 1950’s as described. They certainly did not have ‘aviation’ sales as such, which were common in the 70’s 80’s and 90’s. I can’t see what type of sale that spadegrip would would appear in.

the thread

A mixture of pleasure and pain to read. Correspondence like this makes it worth dipping into this forum, contrasting the odd ruffling of feathers when the odd contentious topic crops up. Fascinating input from all. Kiwinz, judging from your name, although the stick maybe a cause for sadness, at least nz is the most beautiful country in the world.

As bizarre as that sounds, it did actually happen to me once! 2 items in an auction side by side, a nice one and a pup, came back after paying for said item to find it gone, but the pile of…. still there for me!

Hi Kiwinz, sorry it wasn’t good news about your control column but welcome to the forum anyway.

I know absolutely nothing about control columns but something that you said about the provenance of yours has got me thinking:

…passed on a Sotheby’s purchase record of it to the US militaria dealer dating back to the 1950’s. Did people start doing what has been alleged here way back then?

Do you have the Sotheby’s purchase record? Because what got me thinking was that the purchase record probably referred to a control column (which could well have been from Hurricane P3115) but apparently now your control column isn’t from Hurricane P3115. What would prevent somebody making a switch, post-Sotheby’s, because being a mass-produced item there were hundreds of identical control columns so how was this one actually identified on the purchase record?

This also raises another issue with provenance; how do Sotheby’s know the control column was from Hurricane P3115, or are they just repeating what the vendor told them?

Until I acquired it, the grip has been on the original stand for at least half a century.

But not with the ‘original’ brass plaque? It looks to me as if it has been made by a modern cutter, I would have thought that in 1960 the text would have been punched (but I could be wrong)…..of course a replacement plaque could (quite innocently) have been fitted.

Lastly, I hope you have some success with the Militaria Dealer’s money back guarantee.

Hi Kiwinz, yes I remember now……I am sorry I did not reply, it was not for being rude….I just did not want to burst your bubble! It can be so sad when someone does that. A few years back, I saw a manky harvard grip masquerading at a show as Eric Bann’s! The grip was so wrong.

I often get asked to value items etc and sometimes it is difficult to do so without upsetting someone, which I do not like doing.
A few photos….

first is a mag alloy AH2040 grip
second a BoB AH2040
third a BoF AH2040

Nor – I can categorically state – was I ‘fishing’ to try and start a bidding war …..I’m simply not that sort of person.

I’m happy to take that statement at face value.

Welcome to the forum.

Moggy
Moderator

“Did people start doing what has been alleged here way back then?”

Piltdown man?

KiwiNz

Good to have your response, although I appreciate this must be rather disheartening.

You are correct that no other control column purporting to be from this aircraft is known to exist – leastways, so far as I know.

However, assorted wreckage including a Merlin was found in the thicket at Mace Farm, near Biggin Hill, way back in the 1960s. I think the Merlin went to IWM and is at Duxford now. It is, of course, possible that the control column was found then – but surely we would have heard about it?

The only crumb of comfort I can offer is that this has burnt so badly that it has taken on the appearance of a later mag-alloy AH2040 throught heat damage. And we do know that Tom Gleave’s Hurricane burnt badly. However, if that were the case then I would have expected ALL the rubberised coating to have burnt away and I will post later a photo of one in my collection that DID burn….and you can compare and see what I mean. Also, the rubberised gripping looks to have an “undercoat” wrapping which was ONLY on the later mag-alloy grips. If we can confirm that this IS a mag alloy grip then we need go no further in a quest for any provenance, since the mag alloy AH2040 was not in use on Battle of Britain Mk I Hurricanes.

Another thing strikes me odd.

If this has been around for fifty years then I would have thought that in that time somebody would surely have contacted Tom Gleave about it? To have a letter from him about the event would have added HUGELY to its value…but that appears not to have happened. I knew Tom quite well, and he never mentioned any knowledge of his existence of this item and I am certain that he would have done so had he known about it!

I think we need to be sure, 100%, whether this is or is not mag alloy. My money is on that being affirmative.

If it is not, then you need a really positive provenance trail. Without it, even if it is an early but burnt AH2040, you have a relic control column that might have been from Tom Gleave’s Hurricane. And its value remains much the same as that already put forward, frankly.

Might I also add that if this is mag-alloy, and the story persists that it is from Tom Gleave’s Hurricane, then I would suggest that the fire to which that cockpit was subjected would have resulted in a mag alloy grip being wholly consumed by fire, anyway.

Speaking for myself here, but I will try to help you if I can and if your motives and intent are as you set out.

THanks for your help

Hi Guys

Thanks for your help and yes I am disappointed in the reaction, but I’m not about to run away from the forum with sour grapes either. Nor – I can categorically state – was I ‘fishing’ to try and start a bidding war. All I wanted was to seek a value for my insurance and I’m simply not that sort of person.

I’m also determined to get to the bottom of this. The Spade Grip was acquired from a still active, fairly prominent US militaria dealer. It came with a money back guarantee as to it’s authenticity. I also have the full name and address of the previous owner in London, who passed on a Sotheby’s purchase record of it to the US militaria dealer dating back to the 1950’s. Until I acquired it, the grip has been on the original stand for at least half a century. Did people start doing what has been alleged here way back then?ThisI know, is according to the dealer, but I am fairly confident he didnt try to pull-one-over on that particular fact, or the issue of his belief in the authenticity for that matter.

Either way I’ll be getting back to the dealer first and then start chasing this up with the previous owner and Sotheby’s.

One thing I’d like to know is, if this isnt out of P3115, then where is the actual spade grip from the aircraft? Has anybody ever heard of another floating around? The wreck, or at least the engine was certainly recovered, so where is the other prized bit of the aircraft and why hasnt it surfaced?

While I realise Andy and others have expressed the firm opinion that it’s not from P3115, I also take some small hope that like Andy says “one would need to see it “in person”. (Without putting words in your mouth Andy – I take it that a fair conclusion to this sentence would be “to be certain”.)

Incidentally, Rocketeer, I sent you these photo’s via email a few years ago seeking your advice on the same Spade Grip but didnt hear back one way or another. That’s probably where the confusion lies.

Anyhow, thanks for all of your help. I look forward to hearing your responses. Onwards and Upwards!

Another question that might be worth asking.

Is this an item that was supposedly found as a souvenir in 1940, or is is it something that somebody supposedly found or dug up in more recent years?

Just curious.

No, but usually when this sort of thing comes up with this MO, they are on ebay withn a week.

The current thread on wheels is an example, plus several more in recent months.

Bruce

He doesn’t say anything at all about wanting to sell it

I don’t mean this in a nasty way either, but we have had a good five or so first posts by people now about i.d.ing items etc.
Just strikes me as a bit odd

It strikes the moderation team as ‘a bit odd’ too.

We suspect there may be some intention to circumvent the ‘no advertising’ rule, but can’t prove that.

Anyway, as in this case, if the OP was hoping for healthy bidding to start on his item by PM then he may well be more than a little disappointed at this moment.

Mind you, I’d give him a fiver for it.

Moggy

Back when I bought it, the American antique dealer was selling it on behalf on an English investment banker who had acquired it at a Sotherby’s quite a few years beforehand and needed cash.

Simply contact Sotherby’s they hold records of their sales and will be able to give you details, they should be able to give you provenance if indeed it was sold as his sticktop.

on a lighter note

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SPITFIRE-CONTROL-COLUMN-HANDLE-/250653726081?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CPV_Aviation_SM&hash=item3a5c205581

Nice use of a Father Ted quote 😉

I don’t believe it!