Convince the MOD for a Recovery Licence…….

OK.

With all due respect this has been an entirely academic argument about a non-event.

Hi
Personally I am not so sure,
Knowing the site and viewing the current aerial multimap ‘ possible development’, is not all that far away. ( in years )
The site is roughly bordered on two & a half sides, by previous development.
Cheers
Jerry

OK.

Clarified.

The point is that you are not going to be able to excavate this site anyway, especially not now. Even if you applied for a licence you wouldn’t get one anyway. The only way forward is to persuade the MOD/RAF to do it but thats unlikely too.

With all due respect this has been an entirely academic argument about a non-event.

I think I have lost the plot here, Me109.

Without wishing to get into any of the arguments that seem to be kicking off here I had thought that you were saying you DID have a licence to recover this Stirling. At least, that is how I read your first post(s). Is it just me?

Is it the case that you DONT have a licence but intend to dig, anyway?

I cannot imagine that is now likely to happen, anyway. If that is your intention my advice would be… don’t!

HI,

No I don’t have a licence to mount a recovery, sorry I didn’t make it clear from the start, my fault!

I would never dig a site without permission thats for sure, I think the MOD would like to make an example out of someone who digs without the correct paper work and that sure ain’t going to be me.

Advice taken 🙂

I think I have lost the plot here, Me109.

Without wishing to get into any of the arguments that seem to be kicking off here I had thought that you were saying you DID have a licence to recover this Stirling. At least, that is how I read your first post(s). Is it just me?

Is it the case that you DONT have a licence but intend to dig, anyway?

I cannot imagine that is now likely to happen, anyway. If that is your intention my advice would be… don’t!

My point is simply this……

There is obviously some controversy over whether or not the bodies were recovered from this loss. Some people have advised you to steer clear of this for reason or reasons unknown. Yet still it seems you wish to persist with this particular case. Why can’t you simply place all your evidence that there are bodies at the site before the relevant authorities and leave them to it? Surely there’s other Stirlings which could be investigated? Why the apparent necessity to court controversy?

Of course, the other way, if you are determined to remove these bodies for burial, is to carry out an unauthorised dig in which you call the Police as soon as the bodies are discovered thereby presenting the MOD and RAF with a fait accompli?

Regards,

kev35

[QUOTE=kev35;1411081]I’m not too happy with the whole ethos of what you do either. If you want to give the men a decent burial that is, depending on the opinions of the relatives, a right and honourable thing to do. If you’d said let’s do that then I have nothing but admiration for you. But you and I know there’s money in it too. Just out of interest, how many items recovered from crash sites and digs have you sold?

Regards,

kev35[/QUOT

The whole ethos being?

The aim is to have the crew buried properly and as you will be aware wreckage WILL be recovered, the aim is to donate this with the MOD/RAF’s permission to a current project

I WILL NOT sell any of it

Yes there is money in it that goes without saying

And finally, the only items I have sold are items I have bought/swapped or traded for, these items have been dug by other groups and not me

I have NEVER sold anything that I have recovered.

So please no more mud throwing, if you want PM me with your views feel free, or this thread will get out of hand and/or the Moderators will get annoyed

Thanks

Once again we have a thread being dragging in a very predicatable path towards a mud throwing exercise, can we stop it right now.

Not to happy with this comment Kev35:mad:

I’m not too happy with the whole ethos of what you do either. If you want to give the men a decent burial that is, depending on the opinions of the relatives, a right and honourable thing to do. If you’d said let’s do that then I have nothing but admiration for you. But you and I know there’s money in it too. Just out of interest, how many items recovered from crash sites and digs have you sold?

Regards,

kev35

This is all wrong!

If Me-109E just wants bits of Stirling to sell I suggest there might be quite a few others he could dig up all across Europe.

Regards,

kev35

Not to happy with this comment Kev35:mad:

This is all wrong!

It is obvious that there will be aircraft which have crashed and where the bodies of some or all of the crew remain. I think Nachtjagd is correct in saying it should be left to professionals with resources to contact families etc. I suspect the most Me-109E can do is place the evidence that bodies remain with the aircraft before the RAF and MOD and leave it at that.

Don Bryans wrote…

“….. The debt we owe to them, and others like them, can never be repaid,
we can start by bringing these lads home, and give them a decent burial.”

Aren’t they already ‘home’? The debt is at least in part repaid through the simple act of Rememberance. I note that no evidence has been produced to confirm that bodies remain with the aircraft? And as for bringing them home are you going to campaign to bring casualties home from the Reichswald, from Taukkyan or any one of a hundred other locations? Does anyone out there really believe that every Commonwealth War Grave contains the body commemorated on the stone? Where do you draw the line? There are stories of casualties where it has been stated that there ‘wasn’t enough left to bury’ so what do we do in those cases? The exigencies of the time would inevitably have led to mistakes, surely that cannot be denied?

Yes, put pressure on the authorities to recover the human remains if it can be proven they are still with the aircraft, but it has to be done professionally.

If Me-109E just wants bits of Stirling to sell I suggest there might be quite a few others he could dig up all across Europe.

Regards,

kev35

Yes.

Sgt John GILDERS, 41 Squadron.

A well documented case.

or Eddie EGAN 1976 .
TERRY

Me109: I recommend you keep in mind that it is the MOD’s job to trace/contact any relatives. It is part of their JCCC’s policy and they are trained how to do it, with the right resources. Sensitivity is needed. If anyone tries to make these contacts from a private level (hi, you don’t know me but I want to dig up your great uncle……!) then it can go badly wrong for all and can become a media disaster. If this happens then you can forget about getting any cooperation from MOD. Once again, I recommend staying out of it.

Dieter

…my opinion, put those who gave their lives where they should be, not left in a piece of ground that one day will be forgotten about.
cheers
Jerry

Seconded.
The debt we owe to them, and others like them, can never be repaid,
we can start by bringing these lads home, and give them a decent burial.

Don

Just a thought, how do the families involved feel about this? I’m not convinced that it is always best to re-open old wounds, especially when those involved will be quite elderly.

Best wishes
Steve P

Hi
true if the aircrew were say in their 20’s, it would make any spouse nearly 90, ( probably re married ), their parents would be long gone.
always the possibility of children or niece / nephews, who I find so far, the ones who I have had dealings with, are keen to find out about their missing relative and the circumstances.
my opinion, put those who gave their lives where they should be,
not left in a piece of ground that one day will be forgotten about.
cheers
Jerry

Hi Jerry

have sent you a PM

Hi
pm received.
jerry

Just a thought, how do the families involved feel about this? I’m not convinced that it is always best to re-open old wounds, especially when those involved will be quite elderly.

Best wishes
Steve P

Steve,

I have yet to locate relatives of the airmen

Just a thought, how do the families involved feel about this? I’m not convinced that it is always best to re-open old wounds, especially when those involved will be quite elderly.

Best wishes
Steve P

I’d personally have had far more respect for you if you’d just said you wanted to ensure the bodies had a decent burial and to give the families closure.

Regards,

kev35

The missing crew ARE far more important thats for sure, however, there will be aircraft remains recovered in the processs, and of course its up to the MOD and the RAF to decide the fate of those items.

The crew take priority ALL the time

I’d personally have had far more respect for you if you’d just said you wanted to ensure the bodies had a decent burial and to give the families closure.

Regards,

kev35

So you have absolutely NO interest in the remains of the aircraft? Just the human remains which, if found, can then be given a proper burial? In which case you’ll have absolutely NO objection to the remains of the airframe being pushed back into the hole from whence they came will you?

All very admirable but don’t you think you’d be better off placing the evidence that bodies remain at the crash site before the MOD and RAF and then putting pressure on them to effect a recovery? The purely altruistic nature of wishing to recover ONLY the human remains might prove a compelling argument and in light of the recent groundswell of support in favour of the Gurkha campaign might well gain increasing public and media support which the MOD and RAF are forced to acknowledge.

Regards,

kev35

Of course I have interest in the remains of the aircraft
And yes I have been trying to place evidence that bodies remain at the crash site before the MOD and RAF since 1992, I think i might have made it sound that I ONLY want to recover the human remains, but I meant the aircraft remains also (my error).