Correct way to abbreviate "squadron"?

No No No. Flood you obviously haven’t been updated on the Political correctnes thing. They are no longer crabs they are sideways perambulating crustacians (spl?)

I was told by several different former Fleet Air Arm personel that it is not, for example, 801Sqn (or Squadron) but 801NAS – meaning Naval Air Squadron. This was to differentiate them from the Frigate Squadrons…
Since these guys (former workmates) served from the mid 50s to the late 80s I’d suppose they’d know.

Not much help with crab terminology though;):D:D:D!

Flood.

On the point of abbreviating RAF to raff, on my trip through Cranwell the DS (directing staff) certainly did not condone the latter form.

However on a lighter completely irrelevant note that ought to have its own thread entitled ‘things that we mustn’t do’, the extract below relates to protocol in the Officers’ mess.

Mess Games Horseplay in the Mess is never acceptable. However, from time to time, an atmosphere of high spirits is generated and it is worthwhile knowing the form. Remember:

a. If you play, or take part in any game which causes excessive mess, you must clear it up as soon as the game is over…….

c. …….do not become involved in anything that causes damage that cannot easily be reversed…..

f. By all means invite Senior Officers to take part in any Mess games that are generated……

It still sounds like an open invite to me! 😀 😀 😀

Originally posted by JDK
Hi Ashley,

“JDK…the IWM’s policy when cataloguing films with titles, is to record the title on the database exactly as it appears on the film…including spelling mistakes and any grammatical errors…I was merely interested in finding out if there is a “correct” way of abbreviating squadron out of own interest.”

I was being SLIGHTLY cheeky! 😉 That said, there must be an IWM abbr for use when IWM staff are writing ‘new’ text – isn’t there?

Cheers

If they haven’t got an official abbreviation then perhaps you should instigate one

Originally posted by Ashley
Wow! Didn’t expect this to have 33 replies when I logged in this morning! Thank you very very much for all your input, it has been most interesting reading 🙂

JDK…the IWM’s policy when cataloguing films with titles, is to record the title on the database exactly as it appears on the film…including spelling mistakes and any grammatical errors…I was merely interested in finding out if there is a “correct” way of abbreviating squadron out of own interest 🙂

Becka

The quest for knowledge must go on eh? 🙂 It’s nice to know that I’m not alone in wanting to know something just for the sake of it

Originally posted by atc pal
Recce is the “English” abbreviation for reconnaissance, I believe.

If you say “recon” my mind is pointed towards the US Marine Corps – i.e. a small patrol – a “recon unit”.

????

Totally correct mate nice to see so many people on the ball on this.

Originally posted by WebPilot
Heh! Well, for myself, I was “in” the RAuxAF and “on” 600 Sqn.

I recall reading in CF Rawnsley’s biography (or was it Jack Currie’s?) how a slick talking imposter was unmasked in the RAF club in the immediate postwar years as he talked of being “in” the six hundred and seventeenth squadron.

This system of reference i.e. being “in” the RAF and “on” a Sqn still happens. I believe Sqdn was used in the 20’s and 30’s maybe even during WWII but don’t rely on my word too much here. When I was in the Army I was R. Signals and our regiments were divided into squadrons which has always been abbreviated as Sqn and the same applies to our company strength detached units

Hi Ashley,

“JDK…the IWM’s policy when cataloguing films with titles, is to record the title on the database exactly as it appears on the film…including spelling mistakes and any grammatical errors…I was merely interested in finding out if there is a “correct” way of abbreviating squadron out of own interest.”

I was being SLIGHTLY cheeky! 😉 That said, there must be an IWM abbr for use when IWM staff are writing ‘new’ text – isn’t there?

Cheers

Thanks VoyTech,
I didn’t know that! Looks like we are all learning something here. VoyTech’s comments are bang on as far as I know, but a gloss on them is that when captured, airmen of the Norwegean and Czech air forces (for instance) could have a very sticky time, as the Germans could have regarded them as mavericks – their countries having surrendered and laid down their arms – and soldier continuing to fight is even more at risk in that situation. Makes you realise how tough some of it REALLY was.

My 161 Sqn (RAF) Canadian (no names for family confidentiality) flew with a couple of Brits, was a Canadian in the RCAF and had a New Zealand RNZAF W/Op, the Kiwi having American parents! Sadly they were all killed, and are buried in a Canadian Cemetry in Holland; along with a sprinkling of non-Canadians – I saw at least one Norwegean grave there.

I agree, a very interesting thread.

From my pre-war/wartime Auxiliary mate:

“Mark,
Sqdn was the normally used abbrev-at least in 609 , cannot vouch for other units degree of grammatical correctness. ”

JDK – “However the officers of occupied countries (entirely different to the Commonwealth) and non-combatant countries (e.g. USA pre ’41, Sweden, etc,) could NOT be members of their country’s armed forces – so they joined the RAF. Officers from occupied countries often kept their original force’s structure, but this had no validity under the Geneva Convention as I understand it, so they HAD to also be in the RAF.”

That makes a lot of sense and tallies with what I seem to recall in the conversation I had. That also explains why RAAF and RNZAF badges adorn war graves from RAF Sqdns.

Excellent thread this!

Squadron (Sqn)

The tome of Service Writing is of course the JSP101. I don’t have one to hand any more (having now got a life), but I’m pretty certain that Squadron becomes Sqn.

Originally posted by Phil Foster
No mate I don’t think the RAF would be the same place without a large contingent of Kiwis. They seem to get everywhere, part of the furniture it seems, and if you are grounding a job lot of fast jet pilots, send em over here. Meant in the nicest possible way BTW.

Phil

😀

We already did send you our pilots. As soon as the strike wing ceased, 21 of our top strike pilots transferred immediately to the RAF. And a good number of them have been fighting in Iraq I believe. I heard the first RAF strike in the recent Gulf War was practically all Kiwi pilots. Pity we had to lose them.

I think as far as the war goes, there was hardly any RAF squadrons that didn’t have at least one Kiwi on it, whether as aircrew or otherwise. And of course the great man himself, Sir Keith Park, was a Kiwi too. Now he WAS RAF.

Originally posted by JDK
However the officers of occupied countries (entirely different to the Commonwealth) and non-combatant countries (e.g. USA pre ’41, Sweden, etc,) could NOT be members of their country’s armed forces – so they joined the RAF. Officers from occupied countries often kept their original force’s structure, but this had no validity under the Geneva Convention as I understand it, so they HAD to also be in the RAF.

JDK
You think it’s simple, then it ‘aint! I’m in the middle of this very discussion with one of my authors (he’s not here!)

There were at least two different kinds of occupied countries in terms of their exiled armed forces.
1)
Those, like Poland and Norway, for example, were the legal government was that in the exile. Their armed forces were very much independent formally. You may recall that in order to start forming the Polish Army in Britain in 1940, the Parliament has actually passed a new Law, to permit foreign armed forces to be stationed on British soil (this was illegal before, with exception of formal visits of pre-arranged duration). So the Poles and Norwegians, for example, did not have to (and for most did not) join the RAF.
2)
Then those, like France, where the legal government was the one collaborating with Germany, or like Czechs, who were technically citizens of the Third Reich. They did have to join the RAF, because legally speaking they were traitors of their internationally recognised authorities. This, BTW, explains why only the French used the “Free” label (which is now incorrectly used with respect to all the occupied countries’ forces). They had to use it, because the Vichy France did have its own armed forces, so legally speaking such terms as French Air Force, for example, were already “taken”. Other nations (Czechs, for example) did not have their own pro-German armed forces, so were free to use the Czechoslovak Air Force label, although it did not mean much legally speaking until about mid-war when HM Government finally admitted that the Munich thing was a shame and should not be regarded as legally valid.
2a)
And then of course the “Eagles” who could not use the “US Air Force” name, or even anything referring to “US” or “American”, as that would be a provocation towards the neutral USA.

If you want to learn more about the exiled air forces, follow the advice of EN830. Alan Brown’s book is a fascinating reading.

Originally posted by EN830
Prof Alan Brown wrote an excellent book on the subject of Airmen in Exile that illustrates how these airmen were integrated into the RAF, but also how the various national Air Forces were able to keep their own structure.

Originally posted by Dave Homewood
Re. ‘Foreign’ Pilots in the RAF – NZ’s position

In New Zealand’s case, the RAF sent a team of recruiters to New Zealand before the war, sometime in 1938. They wanted NZ’ers to join up because they knew there was a war coming and for some reason started drafting in Kiwis.

Before this point I doubt there were more than a handful of Kiwis in the RAF.

I know that a couple of chaps from Cambridge joined up then in 1938, and sadly never returned. A good number of these RAF Kiwis at the beginning of the war were brought together and became the New Zealand Flight, which later developed into No. 75 (NZ) Sqn. RAF, flying the RNZAF’s Wellingtons.

So anyway, just before the war 402 NZ men had joined the RAF, and they were indeed members of the RAF.

When war broke out, the Empire countries quickly came up with the Empire Air Training Scheme, where the British Government semi-sponsored training in NZ, Australia, Canada, Rhodesia etc. in return for our aircrews.

The pilots and crews that New Zealand trained in this scheme were all RNZAF members, and of the 10,950 New Zealand men who flew for the RAF, most were actually RNZAF. They were merely administered by the RAF, but in fact overseen by Bill Jordan (the New Zealand High Commissioner to London) who could, if needed, step in and over rule the RAF.

All those men that you see in photos with New Zealand on their shoulder are RNZAF. They were issued the shoulder flashes when embarking for any overseas service. Apparently airmen at home were often looked down on in the street if they were not wearing ‘overseas’ flashes. Damn fool civilians.

In fact one old chap who’d commanded 488 (NZ) Sqn and had flown hundreds of night fighter sorties in the defence of London, told me when he arrived home in 1945 he was in a tram in Auckland. A woman saw he was wearing a European theatre medal, and she began berating him loudly and telling him that he was a coward for not staying home and defending NZ against the Japs. He said he was stunned silly, but a big burly Kiwi soldier next to them picked her up and threw her off the tram!! Great story. So some people had some silly ideas about our boys serving with the RAF despite their huge sacrifices.

I believe that after the war began very few Kiwis joined the RAF directly. They joined the RNZAF instead. In fact many already serving with the RAF changed over to RNZAF command anyway. I’m not sure if this was because of a directive or if it was a choice.

After the war a load of top RNZAF pilots decided to stay on with the RAF. At this point they relinquished their RNZAF membership and transferred to the RAF.

One other point, in NZ’s case up till 1949 New Zealand was still considered part of Britain, and all Kiwis were British citizens. We had self-rule and were a Dominion, but still British as it were. For Kiwis then, Britain was ‘home’, so RNZAF pilots and crews were not considered as ‘foreign’like say Free French, Czech or Poles. We were the Colonials expected to do our duty for King and Country, back in the days of Empire – they must have been the days, eh?

No mate I don’t think the RAF would be the same place without a large contingent of Kiwis. They seem to get everywhere, part of the furniture it seems, and if you are grounding a job lot of fast jet pilots, send em over here. Meant in the nicest possible way BTW.

Phil

😀

Originally posted by Auster Fan
From memory, I think 216 Squadron at Brize Norton is pronounced “Two Sixteen”, something I believe to do with it’s naval origins. Sorry to complicate the issue!

When I worked on 216 Squadron we referred to it in the Comet days at Lyneham and throughout the world as TWO ONE SIX Squadron however times change but then so does the RAFF

My understanding was that a foreign pilot in an RAF squadron was RAF. Ie the Belgians, French, and hordes of others in 609 wree RAF. The Canucks and Aussies were RAF.

No, no, no. See posts between this and yours!

Two scenarios for the Commonwealth / Dominions. Completely different for the ‘rest of the world’.

An Australian might volunteer for the RAF, then be an RAF Officer, with an ‘Australia’ flash on his sholder.

OR – As Dave H has put it so well, then the greater participation by the forces of each Dominion or Commonwealth country meant that more and more RAAF, RNZAF, RCAF (etc) officers were to be found in Europe – and they might serve in an RAF unit. A good comparason is that RAF officers were attached to USAAF units (liason) and vice versa, but were still members of their original force.

However the officers of occupied countries (entirely different to the Commonwealth) and non-combatant countries (e.g. USA pre ’41, Sweden, etc,) could NOT be members of their country’s armed forces – so they joined the RAF. Officers from occupied countries often kept their original force’s structure, but this had no validity under the Geneva Convention as I understand it, so they HAD to also be in the RAF.

Hope this helps – it’s only when you try and explain it you realise how complex it is!

Originally posted by Dave Homewood
Hi Ian,

Interesting one. You may know this already, but a quick look in the brilliant books ‘For Your Tomorrow’ by Errol Martyn I find that F/O Sim was flying a Spitfire VI, coded BR319/C. He took off at 05.35 and during a strike on minesweepers he was hit by flak.

The Spit caught fire, and he pulled away from the formation, and was last seen at 300ft going down towards the sea in a shallow dive with a dead propellor. He was not seen to bale out or ditch.

Hi Dave, I have actually contacted members of his family and have a bit of detail on him. He also features in the book “Malta the Spitifre Years”, there are several photos of him.

If you are interested I will send copies of the info that I have, just drop me your email address.

Thanks

Ian

The current official abbreviations are on the RAF web site:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/comm.html;)

Hi Ian,

Interesting one. You may know this already, but a quick look in the brilliant books ‘For Your Tomorrow’ by Errol Martyn I find that F/O Sim was flying a Spitfire VI, coded BR319/C. He took off at 05.35 and during a strike on minesweepers he was hit by flak.

The Spit caught fire, and he pulled away from the formation, and was last seen at 300ft going down towards the sea in a shallow dive with a dead propellor. He was not seen to bale out or ditch.

He’s commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.

His serial number was NZ403995. He’d flown 588hrs and thiswas his 98th op. He had flown with four different squadrons.

As for Mairoa, Auckland. Did you get this from CGWG?

I had not heard of this place, and it is most probably a very tiny rural settlement (which are usually lesser than even anl English village in population) It is not in or near Auckland city to my knowledge.

Auckland province (not the city) covers vast tracks of the North Island. These days we usually refer to counties rather than provinces, but this often confuses because they referred to the province in the days of the war. So something that in those days read Auckland could in fact 2-3 hrs drive from the city.

I found that there is a small place near Te Kuiti (in the King Country county) called Mairoa. I don’t think that the Auckland province stretched down that far. There is also an area of Hamilton (Waikato county) called Maeroa.

Is there anything I can help you with in looking up? I’d be happy to assist if I can.

Originally posted by EN830
Generally RAF Sqn’s are quoted as either Number 2 Squadron RAF, or 2 Squadron RAF or in the case of higher numbers such as 617 Sqn – Six One Seven Squadron, it’s only when you read articles written by our cousins from the other side of the pond, that you may come across such quotes as the RAF’s 2nd Squadron or the Six Hundred and Seventh Squadron of the RAF.

The Americans tend to quote their Squadrons as 6th Fighter Sqn or 502nd Fighter Sqn of such and such Fighter Group.

That’s the way I read it anyway.

From memory, I think 216 Squadron at Brize Norton is pronounced “Two Sixteen”, something I believe to do with it’s naval origins. Sorry to complicate the issue!