Corsair Aircraft – Lake Sebago

Two crucial points – Firstly, critically relating to Kev 35’s question, it was an independent private individual that theorised, researched and found the graves – overcoming denial and blocking by official organisations at each stage.

Secondly the approach taken by the Australian authorities, forced to recognise a mass burial of their servicemen that they had had no hand in finding, was the only PR damage free route. Any other approach would have caused problems. I can’t comment on what ‘lead’ the MOD and British government took, but the MOD’s ability to know when to accept they have making massive fools of themselves remains remarkably poor, as evinced in the ongoing Chinook helicopter debacle.

Neither the UK or Australia are officially pro-active with the reburial (not even recovery) of servicemen from W.W.I or II in the way that the US is. It is therefore up to private researchers to be.

(On what basis, i.e. commercial or not, or if that’s a good thing is another issue. The US’ historically greater sensitivity to personnel losses rather than materiel is a critical factor in the drive to return bodies/remains to the US, IMHO. And to digress for a moment, I’d rather see than effort and money put to the returned service personnel, who are poorly served all to often in the UK, US and Australia, as is well documented.)

Australian authorities have been very responsive once kicked into action – such as by Englezos as above, and by Jim Bourke of ‘Operation Aussies Home’ in the case of the ‘Operation Magpie 91’ recovery of the remains of Herbert and Carver from Vietnam. While we should recognise the tremendous effort and achievements of the more official bodies once the job is presented – including the incredible work in the case of the Canberra A84-231 by the RAAF, RAAF Museum and many others (as in the Fromelles case) this only happened due to prior private drive.

Regards,

I don’t really think so, that’s the impression the Australian government and PR would like you to have.

The research and discovery was undertaken by a passionate and determined private researcher Lambis Englezos. Essentially he presented a situation that – thanks to publicity – the Australian (and British) authorities had no choice but to act. And we were talking a mass grave – a lot of families of ‘the missing’ involved.

Regards

While the discovery of the remains in the mass grave are certainly only due to the determined efforts of Lambis Englezos in the face of doubting “official” historians and war grave experts, the Australian authorities have, since the discovery, been strongly supporting DNA identification and individual re-burial of the remains.

Apparantly that strategy was not strongly supported by the UK government, and therefore I think the Australian authorities are deserving of credit for pursuing that more complex and obviously more costly process.

regards

Mark Pilkington

The Fromelles analogy is interesting. Having followed the story on various Great War sites the impression I have is that the recovery project was and is being driven by the relevant Australian authorities on the basis that most of the remains in the pits are Australian fallen.

I don’t really think so, that’s the impression the Australian government and PR would like you to have.

The research and discovery was undertaken by a passionate and determined private researcher Lambis Englezos. Essentially he presented a situation that – thanks to publicity – the Australian (and British) authorities had no choice but to act. And we were talking a mass grave – a lot of families of ‘the missing’ involved.

The Australian policy regarding recovery of the fallen seems closer to that of the USA than that of the UK.

In that Britain didn’t turn up to the Vietnam war and Australia did, the recent recoveries from Vietnam stand, however otherwise the bodies are not being brought ‘home’ from previous wars.

What is notably different is that young Australians travel to places like Fromelles and Gallipoli for anniversary services, as well as ‘closer’ places like Kokoda (roughly in travel terms as far from Sydney and Melbourne as London is from Gallipoli) to undertake various commemorative runs and the like.

Regards

Some interesting points from Mark, James and Chris B.

What is certainly the case is that the British government were unwilling or reluctant to go down the DNA route although our colonial cousins, and the US, routinely use this method. I imagine this would be denied, but I strongly suspect that there is one reason that the British MOD do not wish to go down that route. Cost.

If anything ever does happen I think it would be more appropriate if the aircraft went to national museums I.e. Smithsonian and the IWM. No tampering or destruction of original material, sympathetic conservation and a happy ending.

More posts on WIX Forum

There have been some more posts on this subject on the American WIX Forum, including the assertion that the pilots’ next of kin were found and contacted by the CWGC some time ago.

There is also mention of other RN wrecks in the lake, including more Corsairs and an Avenger.

DD

Kev

The reality here is that these aircraft were found during a search for sunken aircraft, thought to be Corsairs, in Lake Sebago. This was indeed a “commercial” operation, if you like. When they were found the identification was subsequently made which then revealed the identity of the pilots and that both were still missing. Ergo; the location and identification of these pilots was a by product of that “commercial” search. If it is what the families want then I see no reason why a recovery of aircraft and any remains contained within them ought not go ahead. In effect, the recovery of the remains might then be a by-product of the salvage of the aircraft – but is there really a problem with that? Lets face it, the State of Maine, the US Government nor the UK’s MOD are going to recover either the men or the aircraft – not in a million years are they!! One cannot expect the potential salvors to act in a wholly altruistic manner in recovering these aircraft and potential remains. We are talking here about a project which will possibly cost many many thousands of $US.

As to the recovery of these aircraft being undertaken because of rarity and condition, I am by no means sure that we would not be looking at the same level of interest and enthusiasm whatever the type. Certainly, the condition has captured attention and imaginations – but if we were looking at corroded and rotted-away hulks, or smashed up debris strewn over many square yards of lake bed, we would not not either be in a position to find, let alone identify or recover, any unfortunate occupants!

Whilst we cannot second guess any response from the families of Sub Lts Knott or Gill I am sure of one thing. Had the family of Sgt Adair been faced with a similar situation (ie where recovery of their loved one might be possible but only as the by-product of a “commercial” operation) I know exactly what their answer would have been.

Andy.

No-one, least of all me, would try to denigrate your efforts at bringing closure to and for families. However, and with all due respect, it seems to me that no recovery would even be attempted were it not for the excellent condition of the aircraft. If these recoveries are undertaken purely and simply because of the condition of the aircraft in which they lie, what does that say about other airmen entombed in their aircraft?

John Boyle makes an interesting point regarding archaeological remains which are dug up after hundreds or thousands of years. But these men died within living memory. That has to make a difference.

Regards,

kev35

Cess – Paul Petersen is a very approachable team leader and I’m sure they will always do their best to do the right things. 🙂

Cees,

Thanks for that, perhaps a wrong perception on my part re the Dutch Authorities – however I am currently liaising with the Royal Netherlands Air Force Recovery Team on an active 619 Squadron Lancaster project and their support has been superb. 🙂

I approached them on behalf of the families involved and the team have been using the UK National Photographic Reconnaissance Archive (the bit not publically accessible) to try and pin-point possible crash sites from imagery from the summer of 1944. Their assistance is highly valued and hence my final comment about them in the post above.

TwinOtter

Correct, the team lead by Paul Petersen is great, and if it was for them all wrecks containing missing aircrew would be recovered at once. Alas, they do not make the decisions, but have to wait until a formal decision has been taken and that usually takes some years.
Cheers
Cees

I don’t see the problem here….
The pilot can be ID’d and given a proper burial. His family will get closure.
The plane is rare and in nice shape and worthy of recovery.

So why not?

Society/people don’t have problems with ancient archeological digs…so recovering artifacts isn’t culturally taboo.
That means what we’re really discussing here is an arbitrary decision of how much time must pass before recovery is okay.

Keep in mind time changes perceptions.

I’ve seen the “peat bog” man at the British Museum. He (well half of him) is laying in a glass case to be looked at by generations of schoolboys who, no doubt, like the idea of looking at a real body.

And I’ve been to the Egyptian antiquities museum in Cairo and looked at countless mummies and caskets, No one seems to mind that they’ve been taken from their original resting places.

Years ago it was disrespectful or insensitive to show the Zapruder film…nowadays, every cheesy TV documentary shows JFK getting his brains blown out in color and high definition. Then repeated in slow motion. And like most TV documentaries, these shows aren’t as much about news or education as entertainment.

When working for a TV news operation we didn’t show the images of the planes hitting the buildings when we did stories referencing the 9-11 attacks. We could show the aftermath and crowd reaction shots, but showing the planes hitting was seen as being exploitative and unnecessary.
In 50-100 years, I’m sure that will change.

Aircraft wrecks and remains

Andy

I have only been ‘involved’ with only one aircraft recovery through my 19 years of researching and writing that contained remains. This aircraft was also recovered from a lake – very cold but not overly deep. Two things I can add.

The pilot did not get out when he force landed. When the cockpit was examined by the recovery team (although classed as missing though did not know whether the pilot was in the aircraft or not) the skeletal remains had collapsed and was located in the foot well. The remains consisted of a few large bones and the only other identifiable parts were the shoes and buttons. (Whatever the quantity, there were the remains of the pilot).

The pilot was buried with full military honours. A couple of years later the family were located and I believe are relieved to at last find out his remains had been located, buried with honours etc. They now have a grave and have also asked for the pilot momento’s to be returned to the family.

Whether the Corsairs will get recovered or not I await and see though personally I believe these pilots should be recovered and buried. The commercial aspect of the aircraft recovery should be bi-product of this task and I also believe the families should also have a say and seroius efforts made to locate them. If the airframes becomes a bi-product of the recovery of the bodies, then I would prefer that any commercial aspect to the salvage goes no further than restoring an airframe to static – not to flying. (As the Museum at Yeovilton already had a Corsair so who would want a static FAA Corsair – if in the UK? Would the US museums want a FAA static Corsair?)

Only my two pence worth – some will agree and some will not.

regards

Mark

Cees,

Thanks for that, perhaps a wrong perception on my part re the Dutch Authorities – however I am currently liaising with the Royal Netherlands Air Force Recovery Team on an active 619 Squadron Lancaster project and their support has been superb. 🙂

I approached them on behalf of the families involved and the team have been using the UK National Photographic Reconnaissance Archive (the bit not publically accessible) to try and pin-point possible crash sites from imagery from the summer of 1944. Their assistance is highly valued and hence my final comment about them in the post above.

TwinOtter,

Sorry to burst your bubble but that is not the case.:cool:

The Netherlands have the same policy as the UK, leave them where they are and for heavens sake don’t ask for money to dig them up (politically incorrect way to put things, but reality)

Only if a site is found by chance during building work and there is a chance that UXB might be present only then the local authorities (Mr/Mrs Mayor in all cases) are willing (forced actually) to call in the RNethAF and EOC to clear the site, but only because of the danger involved . Not if there is a possibilty that human remains may be present. Although these days it is becoming more general practise to carry out a preliminary investigation during the planning phase if there is a suspicion that wartime leftovers will be on site (again UXB, not missing aircrew).

Over the years most recoveries regarding missing aircrew are the result of groups of enthusiasts of which there are several active in the Netherlands who (using the force of the press and next of kin) have made sure that missing aircrew have finally been laid to rest.

Mind you, this has nothing to do with the RnethAF recovery team (speaking from experience over the years regarding the team I work for as a volunteer) as they are a great team who are very willing to carry out the work. But they can only be called in. So in this case do not confuse the RNethAF with the Dutch authorities as politicians make the mess, and let others clean it up.

Hope to set things straight
Cees

I concur with Andy’s view about the positive effects that can be realised for families, relatives and even friends, when they finally ‘know’ what happened to someone who was ‘lost’ whilst serving their country.

My view comes from ongoing contact and research assistance that I’m providing for several 619 Squadron Lancaster crews. Words cannot describe the importance of the bonds of friendship and the depths of emotion that have been forged around such ‘research projects’.

Late last week I was able to help facilitate contact between families in the UK and Canada, who have a shared history in a 619 Squadron Lancaster loss. They have been trying to establish contact for years and they are now able to share their stories and information.

One final point, IMHO the nation that has the correct approach is the Netherlands – I believe that the Royal Netherlands Air Force Recovery Team is a shining example of how to approach these sensitive matters – please keep up your great work! 🙂

THIS IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT…..!!

To answer those who doubt that families would want to know, who suggest they would be distressed or that, generally, they wouldn’t be interested, then I think these images tell a very different story.

This is the family of the late Sgt Pilot Hubert Adair at the crash site where he fell atop Portsdown Hill on 6 November 1940 – pictured just after a memorial service for him at Tangmere Church. The elderly chap with the cap and glasses is the farmer, and witness to the crash. In the second image he is shaking hands with Hubert’s daughter, who never knew her father. The importance of this to the family is impossible to convey. Note as well the age range of the family members present.

Although Nachjagd, for example, might disapprove the family were found by the writer. The MOD had failed to find them in 1979 and the family never knew, until quite recently, what had happened to Hubert. They would otherwise have remained unaware.

Iceni

With reference to your post (#130) I have just had the following from the lawyer acting in the Sebago Corsair case:

“Andy,

Your legal friend’s analysis is spot on. I would like to Email him
directly.

The jurisdictional issue we faced in the federal (ie, US) court was
whether Sebago Lake, by virtue of being entirely within the State of
Maine, constituted “navigable waters” for purposes of federal maritime,
or admiralty jurisdiction. Otherwise, as your friend noted, it would
be a matter for the courts of the State of Maine.

But the US District Court used analysis for collisions occurring on
lakes that were not interstate–that is to say, did not include waters
of more than one state–in which case federal jurisdiction would be
guaranteed. Historic Aircraft Recovery Corp. argued that commercial
salvage–the recovery of the Corsairs by a commercial vessel–was in
and of itself another independent basis for federal admiralty
jurisdiction.

The US District Court did not buy into this argument and took the easy
road: dismissing the case because Sebago Lake was entirely within the
State of Maine.

Feel free to pass this on to your legal friend with an invitation to
correspond with me directly.”

If you want to PM me, Iceni, I can pass on contact details and e-mail addresses etc.

Nachtjagd. Had private individuals not “taken it upon themselves” to trace next of kin then the relatives of Sgt Adair, lost on 6 November 1940, would not have known what happened to him. In fact, the MOD could not find them. Private individuals could, and did. Not to mention the cases of Plt Off C B Barber, Plt Off A W Clarke, Plt Off J B Ramsey, a certain Sgt Hurricane pilot shot down in North Kent (!) or Flt Lt Rushmer….to name but very few. In the case of the Sgt pilot and incident we cannot mention, the MOD asked a private individual where the family were because they had NO idea and would never have found them!! On the other hand, the authorities in the UK buried a Luftwaffe crewman in recent years unable to find his family. I knew where they were, and had been in touch with them many years earlier. If only they had asked!!

Your post, Nachtjagd, also seems to somehow suggest that you object to subjects like this being written about or discussed if involving WW2 casualties. At least, that is how I read it. That being the case, you could kiss goodbye to 90% of articles in FlyPast, Aeroplane, After The Battle, Britain at War etc etc etc….not to mention the majority of books on WW2 aviation subjects.

Nachtjagd – It seems to me that the crown has had the money to help fund legal action to prevent the recovery of the aircraft . In the documents of the case it gives no mention of the crown contacting the next of kin -so effectively they had a legal battle without the interests of the NOK being represented. As for contacting someone regarding their relatives – I am not aware of any restrictions that prevent a person contacting someone about their family members. Indeed it must be pointed out that the Mod owns the machinery -it doesn’t own the human being.

Bruce, I think Andy has said that the photos were carefully cropped to avoid pictures of thye cockpit. I assume because remains could be seen… Oh btw have they found both Corsairs or just 1 ?

Paul

Its a difficult line to walk this one, and I am aware that I have, by association suggested that if it were a rarer aeroplane, then I would approve of recovery!

The pictures I have seen of the aircraft show an apparently empty cockpit; so my question remains…..

Bruce