Cosford hangar one

Originally posted by David Burke
Elliot – to the best of my knowledge there are two ‘Zero’s’ in the U.K . A cockpit section in the IWM Lambeth and the very sorry remains of one at Duxford. The Zero is massively more significant than the Ki100 . The Zero represents Japan’s Imperial ambitions whilst the Ki100 represents the fight against the B-29’s . I imagine that far more British pilots entered combat against the Zero than ever did the Ki100. The Zero is distinctly an icon of the era – the Ki100 never will be.
Whilst many might appreciate the Ki100 – it belongs back home in Japan with a Zero in it’s place. It’s not a matter of rarity-
it’s a matter of significance . I would dearly like to see a complete pristine Zero at Hendon – the British and Commonwealth pilots
fought in many cases an uneven battle against her. I think the Zero which was a nemisis to so many deserves our attention -the Ki100 belongs home.

Hi David

Actually, there are at least three ‘zeros’ in the UK now if you count the Hunt’s one, and there are unconfirmed rumours of a fourth wreck from Russia.

I think it would be great to have a decent zero in the UK – it is without doubt the most significant Japanese aircarft of WWII, but actually a Ki 43 would be far more relavent as by far the bulk of our encounters with the Japs in WWII were against the army and not the navy.

An intact Ki 43 wreck (not any old rubbish out of the Kuriles either) was put under Hendons nose a few years ago and they were not really interested.

As far as the Ki 100 goes, they were not solely used against B-29s and were encountered by FAA pilots off the coast of Japan.

The NASM have such a fine collection of Japanese aircraft – many of these are sole survivors – the only museum quality Imperial aircraft in the UK are the Ki 100 and the Ki 46. I would like our aviation museums to be the best in the world and would be very sad if the Ki 100 left these shores – something that is thankfully very unlikely to ever happen.

Don’t worry – they will get their Zero one day, and we won’t have to lose the precious Ki 100.

And much as we love our old aeroplanes, cans for food, fryingpans etc, etc*, were rather more in demand. My folks in Aus were sending food parcels to Britain in the late 40s, and in 1945, the Dutch were starving. In that context, old aeroplanes are a LOT less important!

*Yes I know no Spitfires were made from ali frypans, and probably not the other way around either – it’s the principle that applies!

If you don’t mind a good cry, have a look at a copy of ‘War prizes’, where you’ll find the following Battle of Britain a/c – a Me110 scrapped in 1948, and a Ju87B fuselage that survived until 1946. A 1941 Ju88, scrapped around early 1948, a 1943 Fw 190 that dissapears in mid-1946, a Henshel 129 scrapped in late 1947, and a Me110G scrapped in 1952, and this is just a selection from the a/c that were in the UK.

We only have a He111 at Hendon because there was no room for it on the carrier taking other German a/c back to the USA. It ended up with the 56th FG. When they went back to the USA, it was flown to North Weald & abandoned there.

A lack of space at the storage MUs was a prime reason for many German a/c being scrapped, even some of those selected for future Museum display. I suppose the reason so many Me163s have survived is that they were so small & took up less space in storage.

Geoff.

Seems unbelievable now that “we” would scrap most of a very rare, and important, aircraft. I know the odd inane decision stll happens now, but that is pretty staggering.

The Lambeth Zero (Mitsubishi A6M5 Navy fighter Type O model 52 ‘Zeke’) carried the acronym ‘ATAIU-SEA’ (Allied Technical Air Intelligence Unit – South East Asia), and the Jappanese Navy code ‘BI-05′ on the fin, indicating it to be a/c ’05’ of the second aircraft carrier of the second koku Sentai.

When it was transferred to the IWM at Lambeth, space limitations meant that it was only possible to display the cockpit section. The remainder of the A/C was sold as scrap, and could be seen in the scrapyard of the British Aluminium Co Ltd at Latchford, Warrington, in early 1956.

The image below, from ‘War Prizes’ (Jim Reason Collection) shows the Lambeth Zero in over Malaya.

Geoff.

Why a Zero at Hendon? I thought they had run out of space why not Cosford?

Elliot – to the best of my knowledge there are two ‘Zero’s’ in the U.K . A cockpit section in the IWM Lambeth and the very sorry remains of one at Duxford. The Zero is massively more significant than the Ki100 . The Zero represents Japan’s Imperial ambitions whilst the Ki100 represents the fight against the B-29’s . I imagine that far more British pilots entered combat against the Zero than ever did the Ki100. The Zero is distinctly an icon of the era – the Ki100 never will be.
Whilst many might appreciate the Ki100 – it belongs back home in Japan with a Zero in it’s place. It’s not a matter of rarity-
it’s a matter of significance . I would dearly like to see a complete pristine Zero at Hendon – the British and Commonwealth pilots
fought in many cases an uneven battle against her. I think the Zero which was a nemisis to so many deserves our attention -the Ki100 belongs home.

I cant really see why any one would saw through the spar to dismantle the Liberator….

They are relatively straightforward to dismantle without going to such ludicrous lengths.

However, stranger things have been known!

Bruce

I understood that that the Valiant has a self-sawing spar – called ‘fatigue’ :p

Originally posted by David Burke
The RAFM could of course have sold the Liberator to Duxford which would have been far simpler than the exercise they had to do to acquire the Lackland example. The loot in the RAFM’s palms could then have been used to acquire the Lincoln G-APRJ to join the experimental collection at Cosford with the other Lincoln moving to Hendon.
Using the rest of the loose change I would then get hold of the ex Sidney Cotton Electra Junior for display in Milestones.
If I hadn’t got bored by then I would then see if any group in Japan would be interested in the Ki100 in exchange for a genuine restored Zero to put on display at Hendon.

David! That’s the only Ki 100 in existance! There may not be many zeros in the UK, but they are ten a penny as far as wrecks go – if they wanted one, they could easily get one. It would be a very sad day if we got rid of the Ki 100.

I never said or intimated that you slagged anyone off. If this sort of discussion thread annoys you why subscribe

Shorts

Originally posted by Bruce
Damien, the Lib did not fly into Cosford, and has already been dismantled for road transport – so flying her is probably out!

I think Damien meant that the Lib ‘flew into UK’

But I read on Rob Quirks website that for its move to Cosford, its wingspars were cut making it permanently ‘un-airworthy’

I beg to differ. Cosford was originally called the Aersospace Museum Cosford which giave it some uniquness and indivduality. it has only been referred to as the Aeroapcae museum since the emrgance and total dominance of Hendon. Until the developement of Hendon cosford and its collection was left alone its only since the expansion of Hendon has the collection at cosford been split. Many unique aircraft have been moved down to London to fill gaps but with no visible theme it just seems we have that space lets put someyhing in there we don’t have anything decent let take it drom somewhere else. If you apeak to some of the staff or vounteers at cosford, the people who are in the know I am sure you might get a different perspective.

Shorts

Just another angle here. Having travelled the world looking at aircraft museums (in between good food, drinks, sun, etc, etc, of course) I would just like to point out moans about Cosford and Hendon being ‘a long way apart’ is a very greedy / lazy point. Britain (England in the main) has more historic aircraft closer together and more accessiable both free and with a (small) charge than anywhere else in the world. Yes, anywhere. Draw a line across Britain, a tiny (overcrowded island with cr@p public transport, admittedly) above Yorkshore and you have 90% of the museums in an area of less than 800sq miles. You can get to any of them on a good day from just about anywhere else and back. Cosford & hendon are both on rail links and motorways. What more do you want?

Not so in Europe, the US, Canada, or the Antipodies.

Cheers

It boils down to the simple adage ‘you can’t please all of the people all of the time.’ We’re blessed with a wealth of heritage in the UK. They can’t all be in the same place and if you were to try that the Midlands would be the obvious place. I preferred the 262 looking a bit dusty and dowdy at Cosford than in the Milestones of Flight, but I like the Buccaneer at Hendon. The ‘duck’ would have been great if it had continued to fly, but I was pleasantly surprised at how much I enjoyed seeing at Hendon. I like the Liberator at Cosford yet I look forward to seeing it at Hendon. I want to see the Valiant in a well lit space rather than looming over you like some dark cloud against an even darker sky. Change is inevitable, though not always to our taste. The point is these airframes are protected. And barring disasters will still be there in 50 or 100 years time. Unlike so many that are now nothing more than a distant memory.

Regards,

kev35

Not having a go at London people Bruce, just trying to say midlands centre of country and gives everyone fair chance to see them.

IMHO the comments about Cosford being ‘depleted’ are only true to a small extent.The collection at Cosford is still a very interesting one and there are major plans afoot for it’s future,it’s not as if it’s been robbed or forgotten.I live in West London,so a trip to RAFM Hendon is only a tubetrain away but I still find myself wishing I lived closer to Cosford-Hendon don’t have an Argosy,TSR.2,Trident,Viscount,Javelin…I could go on.I can understand Midlands folks being miffed about seeing some things go south,but in truth I’m miffed that the Valiant is going north, it’s just the way things go.I should also point out that it’s possible for exhibits to move between the two,so perhaps something Cosford have ‘lost’ recently might come ‘home’ again in a decade or so.

and not anyone wants to travel to the Midlands when they live in the London area

Catch 22

Bruce (Midlands born and bred)

One sentance sums it all up Kev, Cosford has been depleted. Not everyone can afford or wants to travel to London to see these fine aircraft when they had a good home in the Midlands.

On my last visit to Cosford I was told that the Argosy had been moved down to the butts while waiting it’s turn for some remedial work. And that it was set to go in the new hangar/building/monstrosity/edifice (Delete those you feel are not applicable.)

I agree that some of the airliners should go inside. I would particularly like the Comet, Viscount and Britannia to receive some protection. I have no real complaints against the so-called ‘Hendoncentric’ nature of the RAF Museum. In Hendon and Cosford we have two fantastic collections of aircraft (and other artefacts) which are FREE to enter. I can see what they are doing with the Cold War collection and the Berlin Airlift theme and I am quite happy to see them at Cosford. It is probably quite fitting, and indeed wholly appropriate that the three ‘V’s are displayed together. That couldn’t really happen at Hendon.

I hadn’t heard the rumours about Manchester, so perhaps that is why Cosford is being depleted, to make room for Manchester’s airframes. It would be easier to transport from Manchester to Cosford than to Hendon.

Both Museums serve their purpose, to protect and display significant aspects of our aviation heritage. I think it might be best to reserve judgment till such time as all the moves are over and the new building is completed. Whatever happens we should applaud the fact that money is being made available.

Regards,

kev35