Crowsnest delays and costs

Yeah whilst at face value fitting Searchwater2000 and Cerberus might appear to be the cheapest quickest solution it might not actually be the case. At first they offered a palletised solution running off the back of a Merlin converted with a ramp, they are now offering a side mounted trapeze solution. Now when it was the idea that the spare HM1 not being converted to HM2 would be used it was not a bad solution but it appears the RN wants to use the HM2 with any airframe being used. Mounting the trapeze, pulling out the consoles to push in the Cerberus fit is a pain. On the other hand Vigilance hangs the radar pods off the HM2 torpedo rails and uses the already installed consoles with updated mission software. That offers significant cost savings and training advantages, it allows any airframe to be adapted to role quickly and a few extra training modules for those personnel who will man them rather then an entirely separate training stream for a unique AEW solution. It is also significantly more exportable albeit the Americans will mainly benefit from that.

Vigilance strikes me as the sort of system that could be put on other airframes (that might appear in the frame in a similar timescale) much more easily….

Jonesy: so what’s so expensive about using the radars we already own? And if an upgrade is giving us such a capability for one of the proposed radars, (1) why only that radar? (2) how the hell is that being funded? If it really is specific to Vigilance, then something very fishy is going on. It sounds almost as if someone is trying to circumvent the selection process in favour of one bidder.

The fact that they have to be adapted to fit in an airframe that they currently arent flying in. Integration, testing, envelope validation etc, etc thats expensive financially and in terms of time to deploy. HM2 is set up to accept Vigilance for very obvious reasons…it IS a nice little fait accompli and it is distinctly ‘fishy’. Its also a very neat solution that means we have a fast fit option to deploy the capability should we need it at the rush.

Four helicopters by 2020 not too bad? But it’s an unnecessary delay! I fear that yet again, we’re spending a fortune, & years, on evaluation instead of buying equipment. Remember the AFV fiascos of the last 20 years? A billion quid spent on NOT buying AFVs: money that could have bought a lot of useful kit, e.g. upgrading hundreds of Warriors. I fear we may be repeating that succession of mistakes.

Of course, we shouldn’t rush into buying whatever’s first offered, but in this particular case there’s an option which looks safe, quick, & should be relatively cheap, i.e. carrying over the Searchwater 2000 radars. In my opinion, we should make that the preferred option, with others asked to put forward proposals only as insurance. Thales should be asked to put forward a fully costed, risk-assessed proposal ASAP, with a view to service entry a hell of a lot earlier than is now being talked about.

Jonesy: so what’s so expensive about using the radars we already own? And if an upgrade is giving us such a capability for one of the proposed radars, (1) why only that radar? (2) how the hell is that being funded? If it really is specific to Vigilance, then something very fishy is going on. It sounds almost as if someone is trying to circumvent the selection process in favour of one bidder.

Dammit, why don’t they just go for fitting the existing ASAC kit (with the upgrades already proposed by Thales) to Merlins. It must be the quickest, cheapest, & lowest-risk option. The radars are relatively new, & the upgrade will keep them up to date for a good few years.

I dont know if that is likely the cheapest option. The HM2 upgrade supposedly sets the choppers combat system up to accept and display the Vigilance pods output. If that is the case deploying the capability is a matter of operator training and buying the pods. It could, theoretically, even be a UOR to deploy the capability should a short notice issue blow up between first stovie squadron deployment afloat and planned Crowsnest IOC.

Having 4 helicopters by 2020 wont be too bad and even between 2017 and 2020 with the F35’s capabilities we will still be in a far better position than 82.

Dammit, why don’t they just go for fitting the existing ASAC kit (with the upgrades already proposed by Thales) to Merlins. It must be the quickest, cheapest, & lowest-risk option. The radars are relatively new, & the upgrade will keep them up to date for a good few years.

I understand all that, I just think that they are testing out all the kit that will be on the market and getting to understand how it will operate, whilst at the same time making a very very tentative commitment to having it on deck when it might be needed.

I suppose its all about timing, and you know better than me whether the MOD would prefer to carry on with the Seakings (assuming that is what will happen in the gap where Crowsnest is not available) whilst this system eventually becomes operational.

2017 is a long way off in terms of MOD budgeting and planning (and 2022 is even further)and I just wonder if they are doing some preparatory work whilst highlighting the potential costs of what they are doing…

The Seakings are being binned before Crowsnest becomes available, can’t remember the date, it’s another gapped capability to save money.

Some money has been made available for design studies etc, but as you say it’s more than a little tentative and many think it’s rather short-sighted for the carriers to go into service without it.

I understand all that, I just think that they are testing out all the kit that will be on the market and getting to understand how it will operate, whilst at the same time making a very very tentative commitment to having it on deck when it might be needed.

I suppose its all about timing, and you know better than me whether the MOD would prefer to carry on with the Seakings (assuming that is what will happen in the gap where Crowsnest is not available) whilst this system eventually becomes operational.

2017 is a long way off in terms of MOD budgeting and planning (and 2022 is even further)and I just wonder if they are doing some preparatory work whilst highlighting the potential costs of what they are doing…

It seems very late and half-hearted to field a helicopter based system. I’m smelling something fishy and its not just because we are in the naval section….

Why? what alternatives do we have apart from designing a completely bespoke STOVL aircraft or UAV solution that would almost certainly cost more money, take longer and be riskier?