Cumbria shootings

…what was the long bow designed for? and what are they used for now?

As you raised it – this person could quite easily have killed the 11 victims and injured the others with a modern hunting or sport bow or one of the crossbows that can be bought. An arrow is quite capable of fatally wounding someone – it worked well enough for centuries. Do we ban archers or others from owning them just in case?
For years Bird probably went through his application process for renewing his certificates with no indication of how he would end up using them. Maybe he never thought he would turn one of his weapons on another human being. Sadly he did.
Punishing, by tighter legislation, those who feel they need firearms/shotguns for legitimate reasons will not solve the problem.

As was pointed a few days ago on one news slot, these events happen once every 10-12 years in the UK, but happen almost annually in the rest of Europe. Tighter legislation hasn’t stopped the gun crime in the UK which seems to indicate that if you really want to use a firearm to ‘get even’ then just having a fistful of dollars will get you what you want…

Yes, an Apache (or Hind) gunship helicopter is going to be no match for four guys with shotguns in a pickup truck! :rolleyes:

From the US perspective… The only day many of us will peaceably give up our guns, is when the military does so as well. The risk of tyranny if the people are defenseless against either their government or a neighboring thread is quite real looking at history. Also, as long as there’s a military with guns, soldiers will have access to them and may snap just as easily as any civilian.

Ryan

Unfortunately your comparisons are unhelpful because each of the items you mention, and man y others, has the power to kill in the wrong hands. Guns are made to shoot ammunition. That ammunition might be directed at an inanimate target, a flying piece of clay or an animal for sport. It might also, in the wrong hands, be used to kill another human being, in peacetime. They are not specifically and solely made to kill.

To reiterate, from inception they were designed to kill; what was the long bow designed for? and what are they used for now?

The fact that most guns are taylored to sporting styles of shooting, makes no difference; my Martini Henry was made for the British army in about 1870 to shoot Zulu’s, subsequently rebarrelled to a small calibre, it had the stock shortened, and was issued to cadets for target practice, it is now used for vermin control.

Anything wielded in anger can be seen as an offensive weapon, regardless of its original purpose.

Guns, of any description, certainly have a PR problem because the only time they are ever brought to the attention of the average person is in the aftermath of a tragedy such as this, and as has been said, they are principally designed to kill. However the vast majority of legal gun-owners seem to manage their ‘unhealthy obsession’ without harming anybody and when handguns were banned following the Dumblane tragedy it seems that every single handgun was handed in without any of their owners going ‘off the rails’.

Comparisons between banning cars and banning handguns are not really valid as without cars Britain’s economy would simple grind to a halt; cars are needed, guns are not.

Curiously when tragedies strike other ‘unnecessary’ human activities there never seem to be the same calls for an outright ban. A ban on large crowds watching football matches following the Bradford City stadium fire would certainly have prevented the loss of ninety-six lives at Hillborough only four years later, yet after each disaster I don’t recall any calls for such a ban.

“What sort of little sh*t beckons someone over to his car,then shoots them in the face” ?

The same kind that kills children to get back at society.

I believe there is provision in the firearns act for a collector of guns, but they aren’t licenced to hold amunition.

You need to look at gun ownership as a priviledge rather than a right, because we are all very close to losing our priviledges; cars are made for transport, baseball bats for sport, kitchen knives for preparing food..guns are made to kill.

Unfortunately your comparisons are unhelpful because each of the items you mention, and man y others, has the power to kill in the wrong hands. Guns are made to shoot ammunition. That ammunition might be directed at an inanimate target, a flying piece of clay or an animal for sport. It might also, in the wrong hands, be used to kill another human being, in peacetime. They are not specifically and solely made to kill.

a friend has several firearms ( all legal ) he doesn’t see a problem with it

but anyone even slightly sane can see someone with a fixation to have and collect various tools that the sole intention and design is to kill others

deffinately has an underlying social problem !!

I have no interest at all in guns,but I don’t see why you don’t think it’s possible to collect and appreciate firearms for their own sake,without having the slightest intention of ever using them for their original purpose.
Even the most stringent of regulations can never protect against an individual who suddenly snaps,so why should all the people who legitimately want to own guns,for whatever reason,be prevented from doing so ?

More revelations about ” what made him do it ” in today’s paper.This time it’s about how he was apparently taken in by a young woman he met on holiday,showering her with money until she recently rejected him.Do I really need to know that ? Isn’t the fact that he’s done this bad enough for his family,without having all his unsavoury little secrets stripped bare ?

Interestin psychological point.
When the Dunblane school shooting happened,it seemed more personal to me because my husband’s aunts lived in the road where the school was,and at the time our daughter was only slightly older than the children who were killed.I’d visited Dunblane often,and the thought of such evil happening in this pleasant little town was quite obscene.
But over the years,quite astonishingly,I began to feel some compassion for the man who’d felt so alienated from society that he planned his revenge by doing the very worst thing you could ever contemplate,killing innocent children.
I can’t imagine ever feeling this for Derrick Bird though. What sort of little sh*t beckons someone over to his car,then shoots them in the face ?
Weird.

Presenting those who would use the guns illegally (And there are far more killings by them than by the ‘spree’ shooters) with a nice target for burglary or armed robbery, where they know full well they can pick up a useful store of ammunition and guns.

Moggy

Like a gun shop?

Presenting those who would use the guns illegally (And there are far more killings by them than by the ‘spree’ shooters) with a nice target for burglary or armed robbery, where they know full well they can pick up a useful store of ammunition and guns.

Moggy

and i suppose you also think no one would follow gun club members home as well !!

the security would be 100% keener at a clubs armoury !! !!

if the sole intention is target shooting or clay pigeon shooting they should be correctly stored at those premmisses and only be available at those premmisses ( pre booked ) to stop spur of the moment actions like these

Presenting those who would use the guns illegally (And there are far more killings by them than by the ‘spree’ shooters) with a nice target for burglary or armed robbery, where they know full well they can pick up a useful store of ammunition and guns.

Moggy

terrible events , well reported though

but it adds weight to my thaughts that there is no place for firearms in a modern well balanced civillised culture

wether legal or illegal !!

as said you cannot legislate if the owner will become sick ( at least in their correct surroundings ) millitary or police they are monnitored and have to be signed in and out and ammo is accounted for

a friend has several firearms ( all legal ) he doesn’t see a problem with it

but anyone even slightly sane can see someone with a fixation to have and collect various tools that the sole intention and design is to kill others

deffinately has an underlying social problem !!

if the sole intention is target shooting or clay pigeon shooting they should be correctly stored at those premmisses and only be available at those premmisses ( pre booked ) to stop spur of the moment actions like these

i’m sure some will argue tooth and nail about this

but after last week there are a few that would have loved to , but no longer can !!!

Sorry Stuart, didn’t mean that your posts are irrelevant, but IMO the debate on gun control is irrelevant to the actions of the few that are determined at all costs.
Still disagree about cars, but that’s a different debate.

Bumblebee I think the points raised wil inevitably be raised in the media (might actually seem odd if they weren’t really), the investigations into why he did it might be important as it has already raised some facts about his past, and maybe helps towards ‘closure’ for some.
I hate blogs anyway, and I don’t think they are right in this situation.

The problem as I see it, is as David Cameron himself said, you can’t legislate against a switch turning on inside someones head, and yet the public will want action, so whats to be done?

Maybe, if in the aftermath of Dunblane, handgun owners had said, we don’t need to keep amunition at home, so alter the law so it is only to be kept at a licenced gun club/range (the only place we can use the weapons), there by rendering a dangerous weapon inert, in so doing drastically reducing the likelyhood of a licenced gun owner from shooting anyone (for what ever reason), then they would still have their weapons now.

if you separate a motor vehicle from its fuel does that not become less dangerous?

You can buy quite legally in this country guns without a licence, known as obsolete calibre weapons, they are fully functional, it is just that the amunition is no longer made ,and it is considered that no old stock is in existance.

It is illegal to hold amunition for these weapons in anycase, but if the Govt, are happy to deregulate these weapons purely because of the lack of amunition for them, then there is a case to be made for separating licenced guns from their amunition ,other than when they are used for the purpose they are intended, i.e sporting.

I agree very strongly with Kev’s post above, guns make killing and serious injury far too easy. It’s almost the push-button way of doing away with someone, pull the trigger and that’s that. I appreciate there are perfectly sane people who own and enjoy guns, and I myself have a historical interest in firearms (although I don’t own one). But the fact is that guns simplify killing, and it therefore makes it easier for situations to lead to dire consequences much more quickly.

Although this thread is about what a person with a gun can do to other people, there is also the question of what gun owners can do to themselves. Rates of suicide are MUCH higher in countries like the US where guns are readily available. People get drunk, get upset, and make a fatal decision, a decision that has been made available to them by the existence of the gun. If there were only more difficult methods available to them, would they have gone through with it? The figures suggest not.

You just know the ‘meejia’ would never show it but wouldn’t it be so refreshing if one of those eyewitnesses who was asked how they felt blurted out “I was scared to effing death!”

Gun control? I really don’t know what the answer is but to all those out there saying that people kill people, not the guns, have you ever thought how easy using a gun makes things for the killer? I’m sure if Derrick Bird had been running around Cumbria armed with a colander and potato masher it is likely that the death toll would have been considerably lower.

Regards,

kev35

Sorry Stuart, didn’t mean that your posts are irrelevant, but IMO the debate on gun control is irrelevant to the actions of the few that are determined at all costs.
Still disagree about cars, but that’s a different debate.

Bumblebee I think the points raised wil inevitably be raised in the media (might actually seem odd if they weren’t really), the investigations into why he did it might be important as it has already raised some facts about his past, and maybe helps towards ‘closure’ for some.
I hate blogs anyway, and I don’t think they are right in this situation.

It’s interesting that most people have picked up on the subject of firearms cotrol,where to me the way the media have handled this major human interest story has been fascinating.
A lot of what I’ve seen and read has been pointless to say the least,if not downright nauseating.

Endless speculation about what drove Derrick Bird to do this,when the only person who can answer with certainty has taken the secret to his grave.

Psychological explanations of how he would have been feeling while he was killing people – how hard is it to imagine a nutter with a gun ?

Asking eyewitnesses ” How did you feel ?” How the hell do you expect them to feel ?

Blogs from ” a community in shock “. Is that really necessary ?

A horrible event which just lends itself to sensationalist reporting,I suppose.

I`ve had my license for years now, as you know before you get hold of it the police check you, check with your doctor to see if you have history of mental illness depression etc, then check with your references. I mean honestly what more can they do.

Shotgun/firearms certificates used to be renewable every 3 years, that was changed to every 5 years, I would suggest as a cost cutting exercise; a lot can happen in 5 years, maybe more regular contact, and a requirement for a GP to notify change in personal circumstances, and or prescription of anti depressants (during the course of the license)

Interesting point regarding home possession of amunition, agreed farmers need to keep a supply for vermin control, but those who shoot clay pigeons or static targets perhaps do not, afterall most clay shoots that I have been to sell amunition, and even if they didn’t they could.

Maybe the way forward is to regulate more carefully, shooting grounds (some of which are very informal) and move some responsibility towards them, if you own a gun and do not use it regularily, do you really need to own a gun?

I’ll go with you on that one. I am in total agreement with the points you’ve made.

Completely disagree, way to simplistic, if cars were just transport wouldn’t they all be the same?! It’s a bit like saying food is just for survival – both can, and do, have an enjoyment factor.
Also don’t get your earlier post about 28 days and planning permission etc?
I can’t use a firearm until I have been visited by the police, my checks are done and my certificate is in date, every three years.
All of what you say is irrelevant really, if someone is determined enough they will use a firearm to kill, or a car, this guy used both and they are both highly regulated!

Well its nice of you to say “all of what you say is irrelevant”, I’m glad that my hard work typing this drivel is appreciated…….

FYI a clay shoot can be held without planning permission, provided that it is operated for 28 days (or less) in a year ;there are many activities that feature this rule including caravan pitches.

Using your line of thinking that all cars would be the same, why aren’t all kitchen knives the same, or for that matter guns?

From its inception the car was designed for transport, a relatively peaceful activity, whereas the gun from inception was designed to kill, not considered peaceful; ask yourself this question, why can’t you bulk buy petrol and store it at home, so that you might take advantage of a discounted price, no one thinks their civil liberties are infringed having to go to a petrol station.

Stay focused, this isn’t about protecting the public, clearly if it were, then a concerted effort to rid this country of illegally held handguns would be on the agenda.

What this is about is the anticipated knee jerk reaction, that will surely come, and what form that will take; they’ve already banned hand guns, and multi shot shot guns, what next, a complete ban? you tell me.