Just watched a 1998 documentary about Ernst Udet and they showed what looked to be a part restored Curtis Hawk biplane that “had been found in a field near Krakow” running its engine. It was silver coloured, had no wings, and the only marking I could see on the fuselage (which had no fabric on it) was the Olympic rings with “1936” painted above them. Can someone please identify it?
By: antoni - 2nd December 2011 at 14:23
The fuselage of 42-98643, ex USAAF. It is not known how it got to Poland. There are a number of theories. It is very probable that it was a German war prize. Another view is that it was impressed in 1945 after it was forced to land in Poland. The German war prize seems more credible as the L-5 was included in the early listings of aircraft found at Czarnów before they were transferred to the Okręgowa Składadnica Lotnicza (District Aircraft Depot) of the DLC at Gądki near Poznań. It was shipped to Krakow from Wrocław in late 1963 with the first shipment of exhibits/wrecks (fuselages only). At this time it was further damaged when it was cut in half to facilitate loading onto a railway car.
By: DaveF68 - 2nd December 2011 at 13:04
A couple of questions – how did the Germans get hold of the Stinson Sentinel?
Captured in N. Africa or Italy?
The Stinson must represent Stinson L-5 Sentinel 42-98643 – the remains of this are at the Polish museum along with the ex-Berlin aircraft.
There doesn’t seem to be anything online as to how it got there.
By: Arabella-Cox - 30th November 2011 at 16:33
That’s a museum I’d like to have visited (we’ll ignore the practicalities)
By: ericmunk - 30th November 2011 at 15:18
Fascinating model – I guess most of those aircraft were destroyed?
The Fokker Spin is now in the (defunct) Aviodrome in The Netherlands. It has flown since being restored.
By: antoni - 30th November 2011 at 14:53
Apologies. There are several places in Poland that have the name Czarnów and I found out last night that the Berlin collection was evacuated to Czarnów near Poznań, not the one in Lower Silesia. A long way from Krakow but much nearer to Berlin.
The Hurricane was lost to the bombing as was the Donier at the back. The PZL P.11c is the well known survivor at the Krakow Museum.
Another of the Berlin exhibits that was lost was the PZL P.38 Wilk second prototype.
By: lmisbtn - 30th November 2011 at 14:24
Take a look at these pictures I took whilst visiting the Deutches Technik Museum in Berlin in the late 1990s. This is a model of the Deutches Luftfahrt Sammlung as it appeared in 1943. The model was made by the MLP staff at Krakow.
Fascinating model – I guess most of those aircraft were destroyed?
A couple of questions – how did the Germans get hold of the Stinson Sentinel?
Captured in N. Africa or Italy?
Also, what happened to the PZL 11 and, if it was destroyed, are there any left out there?
By: ericmunk - 30th November 2011 at 12:40
Trying not to go too off thread, the Berlin Museum also had some allied aircraft on display during the war. IIRC there was a Wellington, a Hurricane, Battle, and a couple of French types (bomber Bloch? and a fighter MS406?), and details of which aircraft? Shame the Dornier DoX did not make it out, now that would have been some train:eek:! It was just a shame the UK lagged so far behind Europe in pre-war museums.
Don’t forget the Dutch Fokker D.XXI, D.VII, Spin and Douglas 8A. Richthofen’s Dr.I, the Taube that is now in Berlin again, etc.
By: nuuumannn - 30th November 2011 at 10:37
Take a look at these pictures I took whilst visiting the Deutches Technik Museum in Berlin in the late 1990s. This is a model of the Deutches Luftfahrt Sammlung as it appeared in 1943. The model was made by the MLP staff at Krakow.
The Do X is clear at the centre of the museum. In the court yard out front in the third picture you can see a Battle at bottom right and the fuselages of a Wellington and Gladiator, not to forget the Spitty at the centre. In the last shot can be seen a Hurricane at top left and the Me 209 at bottom right, with the He 176 out front. The Hurri had an interesting tale, it was flown by a Czech spy to enemy territory from the UK; he trained in the RAF, then took the aircraft back with him. An article appeared in Aeroplane Monthly on him and the aircraft.
By: farnboroughrob - 29th November 2011 at 15:48
Trying not to go too off thread, the Berlin Museum also had some allied aircraft on display during the war. IIRC there was a Wellington, a Hurricane, Battle, and a couple of French types (bomber Bloch? and a fighter MS406?), and details of which aircraft? Shame the Dornier DoX did not make it out, now that would have been some train:eek:! It was just a shame the UK lagged so far behind Europe in pre-war museums.
By: antoni - 29th November 2011 at 15:09
Some of the Berlin Museum’s collection was destroyed by bombing. What the Krakow Museum has now must be only a small part of the original collection. They were sent to Czarnów now near the present border with Germany, but in Germany before the war. Presumably Czarnów is where they were found. The nearest city is Wrocław (Breslau) and Czarnów is not near Krakow. They became part of the Krakow Museum’s collection in 1963. Where they were prior to that I do not know. The PWS 26 was used as a trainer until the 1950s and then went to some Technical museum in Wrocław. I think the PZL P.11c was there as well. Perhaps that is where the Berlin collection was stored. As the Camel and Grigorowicz have their wings it would seem that they were found complete. The collection was badly damaged when found and what you see now is after a program of restoration in the 1990s.
Walkarounds here:
http://www.polish-aircraftprofile.strefa.pl/walk_av.htm
Book in English still avaiable:
By: nuuumannn - 29th November 2011 at 09:45
D’you mean these ones?
L to R; Curtiss Hawk, in the middle shot; Halberstadt CL II, LFG Roland D VI, DFW C V, Aviatik C III, Albatros C I, Albatros B II. Grigorovich M-15.
Fantastic place.
By: Flanker_man - 29th November 2011 at 08:55
I’ve visited the museum at Krakow a few times – with an aviation enthusiasts group.
On one visit we were shown the Curtis Hawk in what can only be described as a garage on the site – it was being restored in very cramped conditions.
We were also privileged to be shown another ‘lock-up’ on site that contained the fuselage of the Messerschmitt 209 racer – stashed amongst loads of other historic item.
It too was awaiting restoration (I think it’s now on display?)
In the WWI hangar – with all the rare fuselages ‘saved’ from the Berlin museum as mentioned above – was the world’s only example of the Grigorovich M-15 flying boat.
As we left the building, I turned to one member of our group and asked him what he thought of the M-15.
“Great exhibit?” I asked ……….
“Nah!” he replied “Once you’ve seen one, you’ve seen them all” . 😀
Exit, stage left……..
Ken
By: DaveF68 - 28th November 2011 at 23:34
Going slightly off track I have always wondered why the museum’s Fokker DR1 (the last original one left) was not part of the Berlin shipment, or had it already been damaged?
152/17 was damaged/destroyed in an air raid, but some sources say it was moved east – perhaps it was on the train the wings were on.
The RAFM DH-9A came from Krakow as a bare fuselage as well.
By: Oxcart - 28th November 2011 at 20:55
Thank you very much, gentlemen!
By: antoni - 28th November 2011 at 20:51
Walkaround/slideshow here:
http://www.polish-aircraftprofile.strefa.pl/curtiss_hawk-2/index.html
By: farnboroughrob - 28th November 2011 at 20:47
Going slightly off track I have always wondered why the museum’s Fokker DR1 (the last original one left) was not part of the Berlin shipment, or had it already been damaged?
By: galdri - 28th November 2011 at 20:42
It is probably the one at the Polish Aviation Museum at Krakow. It is the very aircraft bought by Udet in the U.S in the 30´s and had a great influence on aircraft procurement by the third reich. After Udet´s experiences with it, all bombers of the third reich should be capable as divebombers – even the He -177!
This aircraft was part of the a large shipment of extremely rare aircraft the Germans were trying to get to safe heaven in Polland – away from the continuous bombing of Berlin. All the fuselages made the way to Krakow, but the wings of most of the exhibits disappeared en route – either destroyed by enemy activity or stolen.
By: antoni - 28th November 2011 at 20:38
It is the surviving Hawk from the two that were purchased by Germany. The other crashed, Udet bailed out.
Towards the end of the war the Berlin Museum evacuated their collection of airframes to Poland. The fuselages and wings were dispatched on different trains. At the end of the war the fuselages were found in Poland and Poland kept them as reparations. The wings were never found. The fuselage is now part of the Krakow Museum’s collection.
By: farnboroughrob - 28th November 2011 at 20:38
This is the machine from the Krakow museum.Part of the former Berlin museum collection that fell into Polish hands at the end of WW2
http://mlp.h2.pl/zbiory_sz.php?ido=19&w=a
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November 28, 2011 at 8:02 pm