Dakota = C47/DC3 when and where did the "RAF" name come from?

None of the British given names were ever acronyms. That’s always an a) suspicious because b) people love to make up acronyms that fit existing words.

From memory, the system for the RAF (NOT FAA) in place at the start of the war was:

So where does that leave Auster, which was a Roman name for a light breeze? I thought that it was chosen as winds were the chosen theme at the time viz Whirlwind, Typhoon, Tempest etc….?

Alex,

thanks for that lin, an interesting site that re-confirms James with the first prize for “Dakota the State:

Transports were named after “Counties or districts of the British Empire,” which led to Avro York, and when US aircraft were obtained, to Americanized names such as Douglas Dakota.

wonders if an email to Boeing would shed any light on who dreamt up the DACoTA? theory, and when? as its seems very unlikely when viewed against the simple example above and when reading that website’s explanation of the very complex RAF system developed over many years for naming everything else.

regards

Mark Pilkington

Hi Guys,

Very interesting discussion.

If you check out this link

http://www.historic-battles.com/Articles/Aircraft_Designations_WW2.htm

Scroll down to the RAF section and it tells you how all the names came about. There is a small paragraph on the Dakota.

Alex

I agree with the above in that Red Indian tribes were used hence Dakota, but also Chesapeke for example….

My understand was that for radio ID a NAME is a helluva lot easier to transmit – C-47 can be garbled or confused with another C-** dakota nice and clear……

James,

I assume all the C-47’s are post January 1942 when the first C47 flight occurred (so Dakota I’s are post Jan1942?) so that focuses on the Impressed DC-2’s in the RAF as Dakota II’s being perhaps the first “Dakotas” into RAF Service?? with perhaps the name being allocated for future use by the Dakota I’s some time prior to delivery off the production line?? , explaining how a DC-2 is a later “mark” Dakota than a C-47?

Thanks for the look inside your Big Book of Aeroplanes 😀

regards

Mark P

My big book of W.W.II areyplanes* sa:

Dakota Mk.I RAF equivalent of C-47, 52 Lend Lease, 1 built from spares

Dakota Mk.II Civil DC-2, 3 impressments, 7 total

Dakota Mk.III RAF equivalent of C-47A 12 ex USAAF, 950 Lend Lease

Dakota Mk.IV RAF equivalent of C-47B 1 ex USAAF Glider pick up, 895 lend lease

No dates, but a few clues and the DC-2 in RAF service WAS a Dak!

DC-5 / R3D-1 total 12 built.

*Combat Aircraft of W.W.II. Weale, Weale, Barker & Bruce. 0946495432

Why didnt they just call it a GooneyBird and be done with it?? 😉

The C-47 Skytrain was nicknamed “Gooney Bird” because of its awkward appearance.

From :- http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Aerospace/DC-3/Aero29.htm

Steve,

Maybe I learnt to spell Dakoda wrong in the first place (and no I am not getting out the Beatles White album to see if rocky Rachoon lived down in the black hills of Dakota…or Dakoda…) I will surrender and write it out a 100 times on the black board :confused:

Why didnt they just call it a GooneyBird and be done with it?? 😉

regards 😎

Mark Pilkington

A old departed friend of mine who flew DC-2’s, DC3’s, C-47’s and the DC-5 always called them 😀 “Dougs” or “Douglas’s”…

And there weren’t many of them around… – Nermal

[QUOTE=Mark_pilkington]JDK,

I felt it was plausable simply because of the “buy UK” focus in the mid 1930’s within the Commonwealth trading block, and to be fair, assumed the US spelling for the state was “DAKODA”? (but thats where John Lennon was shot in New York etc).

Mark, the building where Lennon was shot is also Dakota and not Dakoda.

best regards, Steve

JDK,

I felt it was plausable simply because of the “buy UK” focus in the mid 1930’s within the Commonwealth trading block, and to be fair, assumed the US spelling for the state was “DAKODA”? (but thats where John Lennon was shot in New York etc).

So I too agree the “Dakota” State is a strong first, and the native tribe a good second, and the DACoTA an interesting one to ask someone at the Boeing?? site, and “last” until proven otherwise.

I didn’t recall where it came from when I posted, and was rather surprised to find where it was?? and I hadnt recalled it being as “corporate” a site as Boeing, let alone one with a “Douglas” relationship, I would love to know how they came to put forward a theory such as this, and have an origin of the name so different from the usual RAF sources used?

(Interestingly, if you didnt know the origin for use on your website, you wouldnt need to offer an explanation at all would you?, its rarely attempted for any other type?? in any case??)

anyway, I am still hopeful of getting more data on the earliest use of the Dakota name within the RAF?

James, I am still looking forward to catching up locally tooo, perhaps in hte next two weeks???

regards

Mark Pilkington

I’m with Tony on this one. I can’t find the acronym theory probable or even likely – it doesn’t even work properly! Boeing’s website is not what I would believe to be a ‘reliable’ source, though it ought to be… At best it’s an apocyphal (or let’s find the document stating this ‘fact’) US company’s modern explanation of a rival company’s aircraft history discussing a foreign designation.

Broadly speaking, acronyms were not popular in Britain in the early 1940s, I believe; however (IRC) there was a British wartime radio show called “It’s that man again”, known as ITMA and which popularised the acronym ‘ttfn’ for Ta Ta for now’.

There was a discusssion some time back by Roger Freeman stating he believed that ‘Jug’ for the P-47 was an entirely postwar nickname.

I mentioned Spitfire. Shall I mention it again? Hello? :rolleyes:

There is a tendency these days to assume that odd names are acronyms because we use them so much (especially in the USA), but that is quite a recent phenomenon.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

JDK,

I had to go and find the source of my DACoTA suggestion, in case I had got that confused as well:

Douglas C-47 Skytrain (1941-1946): In 1941 the DC-3 was selected as the standard transport aircraft for the U.S. Army Air Force. Designated C-47 Skytrain, the only major changes were a reinforced fuselage floor and the addition of a large cargo door. As a supply plane the C-47 could carry 6,000 pounds of cargo. As a troop transport it carried 28 soldiers. As a medical airlift plane it could accommodate 14 stretcher patients and three nurses. Every branch of the U.S. military and all the major allied powers flew it. The U.S. Navy version was the R4D. The British called it the Dakota, a clever acronym comprised of the letters DACoTA for Douglas Aircraft Co. Transport Aircraft. For all its official and unofficial names, it came to be known universally as the Gooney Bird. By the time production ended in 1946 more than 10,000 had been built. C-47s remained in service long after World War II. They played a critical role in the 1948 Berlin Airlift and saw action in the Korean and Vietnam wars.

surprisingly sourced from the official Boeing Image Site

http://www.boeingphotostore.com/source/Detail.aspx?L1=support&L2=&imageId=1985811&action=&ss=

I still favour the State or Native Tribe origins, but I did find this one rather novel and more surprising given Boeing are effectively the “manufacturer”, I have no idea where this site has got the idea from?? as I hadnt ever heard/ read of this anywhere else? thats why I raised it earlier.

Anyway my main interest was to learn if the RAAF DC-2’s were the “cause” of the need to introduce such a name? given they werent’ called such in Australia, I was however mislead into that by the “note” referenced to the film.

The Canadians appear to refer to C47’s as Dakota’s but seem to have recieved their “first” ones in January 1943 with the formation of their first specialist transport unit 164 Squadron, this is a full year after the first C-47 flew so I assume the RAF received Dakota’s much earlier than the RCAF?, and also ahead of the lend lease Dakota/C47s that the RAAF recieved in Australia in February 1943?

Is there any overall RAF “type” and RAF Serial website anywhere that allows you to see when an aircraft or type were first introduced into service??
(I know the RAF number system is a block allocation system and therefore much more complicated the RAAF type based “A” series)

regards

Mark Pilkington

In regard to origins of the word Dakota, I was unsure and simply listed that DACo TA explanation as found elsewhere on the web, I am not sure of its authenticity – hence my question.

I simply can’t find any credible evidence for the “DAC(C)oTA” except the classic desire to make an acronym ‘fit’ because it’s neat.

I assume names were only created as esch type was contemplated for acquisition?

I’d guess so. And the naming process was part of the purchase – as time went on, the Air Min got more comfortable with the original US names as well, and particularly when the types were starting to be used in the same theatres by the two countries, similar names made sense, though a/c already named by the British might retain that name – Hudson entering US service.

do you have any leads on the date of introduction of the DC-3/C47 into the RAF?

Not me mate, you want someone who knows… 😉

Tony – thanks!

Oscar Duck – thanks too. Interesting. Again, the nicknames used by the folks at the time seem to vanish and the PR dept names take over.

Bent wing bbb…ird anyone?

A old departed friend of mine who flew DC-2’s, DC3’s, C-47’s and the DC-5 always called them 😀 “Dougs” or “Douglas’s”…

JDK,

thanks for your details and corrections, I actually had to go and listen to the soundtrack again myself to be really be sure it “wasnt” mentioned, and you are absolutely correct while it speaks of “Douglas” it doesnt mention Dakota, (or DC-2, DC-3) so my recollection was obviously confused with the “comment” listed underneath the title listed on the British Pathe site, rather than the soundtrack.

I would agree that unless the original print carried that description with the news reel it is most likely a description applied when these were catalogued for web access.

(I spent hours on this site, when you emailed me the link, downloading lots of freebies so I guess lack of sleep confused me as to the correct source of reference between this film and the Dakota name)

In regard to origins of the word Dakota, I was unsure and simply listed that DACo TA explanation as found elsewhere on the web, I am not sure of its authenticity – hence my question.

I agree the “Dakota” name is one of a complete series applied to US sourced aircraft, and in keeping with Spitfire, Lancaster etc for UK sourced aircraft, and I wasnt suggesting it was a name coined in Australia for the DC-2 because there are no Australian references that refer to these Ex-Eastern Airlines “A30-” aircraft as anything but DC-2’s whereas the later lend lease “A65-” C47’s are all locally known as Dakota’s.

Given the explanation of British names for bombers, Fighters etc it would be perfectly reasonable to use “States” or “Native Tribes” for Transports, rendering the DACoTA explanation unlikely.

The “Australian” aboriginal names of Wirraway, Wackett, Boomerang, Woomera are all local design/production, the local production of overseas DAP Beaufort, DAP Beaufighter, DH Mosquito and GAF Lincoln all retained their “RAF” names. (The “Wirraway” pre-dates the British name of “Harvard” I for the same NA-16 family, but had the RAF “liked” US made aircraft prior to 1939 and purchased Harvards prior to Australia’s licenced production, the local CAC product might have been named “Harvard” as well.

(The Australian Government, RAAF and CAC all copped a blast from the UK for building “American” not “British” aircraft back in 1939, this later lead to the creation of a whole new set of factories etc from scratch, effectively in spite, to build the Beauforts rather than use the already competent CAC to do it)

My main interest was to learn when the first DC3/C47 came into service into the RAF to learn if that caused the adoption of the Dakota name.

I assume names were only created as esch type was contemplated for acquisition?

IE did the British Purchasing Commission, in purchasing US aircraft for the RAF cause the needto create names of “Hudsons”, “Baltimores”, “Harvards” and “Kittyhawks” and “Mustangs” and if so when did they first acquire DC3s/C47s?? for the RAF?

(The purchase of the Australian DC-2’s were undertaken by the BPC in mid 1940. were these the first “British” purchase of the Douglas Aircraft into Military service??)

do you have any leads on the date of introduction of the DC-3/C47 into the RAF? thanks for info todate 😉

regards

Mark P

The comment in ‘Names with Wings’ is that the Dakota was named in accordance with the British 1939 classification system and referred to the American native tribe.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Think we’ve got a mare’s nest here.

I’ve just listened to the RAAF DC-2 film again. At no point does the voice over refer to ‘Dakotas’; only “The Huge Douglas” and “Douglas ‘planes” are mentioned. The captioning (Written recently – 1990s) mentions Dakotas, but that’s not from the soundtrack; it’s a modern explanation, with errors, of the content.

Cheers!

Hi Mark,
Interesting post. A couple of thoughts. First off, the Pathe soundtrack is contemporary with when it was broadcast – not when recorded, so there was often a lag of a week or month for the script to the pics. That said it IS contemporary with the broadcast date – so if they say ‘Dakota’ then, that’s the name being used then. (Incidentally, the text acompanying the film on the Pathe website is modern, and often erratic on stuff such as aircraft ID.)

As I understand it, all aircraft entering British service were given British chosen names, around a set of themes that had exceptions and were revised a couple of times in the interwar period. This system broke down during the war, best illustrated by the name Grumman Tarpon and Grumman Martlet being abandoned in favour of the Grumman names of Avenger and Wildcat.

None of the British given names were ever acronyms. That’s always an a) suspicious because b) people love to make up acronyms that fit existing words.

From memory, the system for the RAF (NOT FAA) in place at the start of the war was:

If the manufacturer had a strong case or the type was derived from something with a differing name, then exceptions could be made – but not always. Alliteration is always popular.

Later when the war got going, names became to important to fuss about, so the stytem became thoroughly busted.

Transports were never high priority I suspect on the naming front, especially if impressed, so (AFAIK) the Lockheed 10 and 12 never got names. A US state for the DC transports makes perfect sense in such a rachety system.

I’m interested in the idea of the Air Min allocating names to Australian purchased aircraft – as we know, the Australians usually either kept the original name (perhaps the case here – Dakota already given?) or used an Aboriginal word – Wirraway Boomerang, Woomera etc, unless you chose the aircraft for the Air Force and you got your own – Wackett 😉 .

HTH!