Dam Lancs

Thanks for the info captainslow. I ordered myself a copy of John Sweetman’s book yesterday but it won’t arrive for a few days. Good to know it covers details like that.

I looked again at Jonathan Falconer’s book last night and could only find 2 pictures that showed the rear of a dams Lancaster clearly enough to make out if the aerial was there or not. The two aircraft were ED817, which we already knew about, and McCarthy’s aircraft, ED825, which as captainslow said, doesn’t have it.

The McCarthy crew must have had nerves of steel to even attempt a bombing run without the spotlights.

Hi Graeme just checked in ‘The Dambusters Raid’ by John Sweetman and he mentions the spotlights were fitted in the front camera slot and in the rear of the bomb bay, some modification was made as it was found the rear spotlight’s lens was becoming streaked with oil, presumably from the hydraulic motor that spun the mine. Also the lights were moved/faired in so they were not so visible.
In ‘Lancaster Squadrons 1942-43’ there is another picture of ED817 in flight showing the ‘Boozer’ type aerial, and a ground shot of ED825 which does not have it, but does have the ventral single 0.303. This Lanc was flown on the raid as due to damage to ED933 in a practice run which could not be repaired in time, it was flown from Boscombe Down to Scampton as a ‘ground reserve’ aircraft, and taken on the raid by Flt Lt Joe McCarthy after his aircraft, ED923 was found to have a coolant leak, ironically ED825 had no spotlights as there was no time to fit them!

Update

I’ve just received a reply email from DoRIS at the RAF museum which has almost cleared up all of my remaining questions and is summarised below for anyone who’s interested.

Spotlights

I have been sent a copy of document DC72/28 (thanks to Air Ministry for pointing me in the right direction for that), although I’m not sure when I’ll get to look at it as I’m still away from home. However, the email mentions that the document shows the initial layout, after which the rear light was moved. Does anyone know any more about this change?

Ventral gun position

Air Ministry was right about this one. The single Vickers gun installation was proposed for the Upkeep aircraft, and was fitted to the prototypes. However, it did not progress beyond this stage and it was not fitted to the aircraft that actually took part in the raid.

Bomb aimer’s position

The majority of the equipment in the bomb aimer’s station was retained, with a notable exception of course being the bomb sight itself. Some modifications were made, including some to cabling and piping, but changes were minimised as the intention was to convert all surviving aircraft back to standard configuration after the raid.

As for the aerial-like thing in Air Ministry’s picture of ED817, I sent my query to DoRIS before I saw that post so couldn’t ask them, but I read ‘The Dam Busters’ by Jonathan Falconer over the weekend and I’m sure I saw pictures of aircraft with and without this aerial. I’ll have another look and try to get serials and whether or not the relevant aircraft were prototypes.

The book also mentioned that some bomb aimers developed their own sighting system, as bazv suggested, some of which involved string and marks on the nose glazing.

Thanks again to everyone for your help and comments.

Graeme

In the meantime – is there really any mileage in that hoary old chestnut that one of the Upkeep modified Lancs went in during training and still rests at the bottom of one of the Howden or Derwent reservoirs?

I live close to the reservoirs, have studied the wrecks and relics of the Peak District and have read quite widely on the subject of the Dams raid, but I have never heard a reference to this story before.

I think it would have been clearly documented in Dam Buster history if it were true. It’s just a myth.

With all due respect to Vince Redfern, there is some confusion creeping in to his comments.

The modified pitot head location was applied to all Marks, not just the B.III. All published photos of Type 464 (Provisioning) Lancasters show them to have the early pitot head (see photo of ED817 as an example).

The raised astrodome was also applied to all Marks at some point.

His comments about the H2S blister is right in detail, but they apply equally to the B.I, B.VII, etc.

His statement that the “radar antena” at the nose are found on all aircraft with H2S is not correct. They are B.A.B.S. aerials. He might be stating that from a certain point, all Lancasters coming off the production line with H2S equipment fitted also had the B.A.B.S. system fitted. It doesn’t necessarily mean that every H2S aircraft had the B.A.B.S. aerials, and a quick glance through my photo files shows this to be the case. It is likely that aircraft already in service with H2S had the system fitted during overhaul, or possibly at modification centres, where individual aircraft were flown to for the work to be done, or maybe on-site by travelling work parties.

The “non-retractable barbet” fitted to twelve aircraft for a special low level raid looks like the FN64 under turret originally intended for all Lancasters but found unsuitable and quickly dropped. Perhaps they were retro-fitted for this raid?

The two sketches showing extra armour plate also seem to belong to the same twelve modified aircraft.

The thing is though, for which raid were they modified? I cannot bring such a raid to mind off hand. Perhaps they were modified but the raid was called off?

Another topic for debate on the Type 464 Lancasters: please study the attached photo of ED817, one of the prototypes. There is a small object clearly visible beneath the rear turret. It looks like an aerial of some kind. I wonder whether it is the aerial for Boozer, a device intended to detect night fighters?

It has long intrigued me that this should be fitted to ED817. I cannot see it being of much use at 60 feet! I wonder if all the Type 464s had these aerials fitted, even though the actual device would not have been much use to them, or were they removed from the aircraft actually used on the raid?

Perhaps all the many thousands of Revell, Airfix, Tamiya, etc Dam Busting Lancs built in the last forty odd years have missed this vital small detail.

I’ve said it on this forum before, modeling a Lancaster is a nightmare if you want to get it dead right!

I doubt it.
Howden and Derwent have both been VERY low several times in the last few years with some of the drowned villages visible. Obviously I don’t know exactly what depth of water there was but it wasn’t much. They tend to keep just Ladybower, the last of the three, full when water is short.

Vic Hallam has written several books about the dams/reservoirs and if anybody knows, he will. I usually see him a couple of times a year at various events so I’ll ask him.

In the meantime – is there really any mileage in that hoary old chestnut that one of the Upkeep modified Lancs went in during training and still rests at the bottom of one of the Howden or Derwent reservoirs?
__________________

Now that would be an iinteresting nut to crack!

Revell Dambuster

if you waited a bit longer, the new Revell Lanc is due to be offered as the Dambuster version with replacement sprues in due course

In the meantime – is there really any mileage in that hoary old chestnut that one of the Upkeep modified Lancs went in during training and still rests at the bottom of one of the Howden or Derwent reservoirs?

Thanks for all your responses.

My model is based on an Airfix 617 Sqdn anniversary kit I bought at Legends a couple of years ago that I’m improving with etched metal flaps, resin weighted wheels and largely scratch-built interior. I didn’t know the Revell and Hasegawa kits were in the pipeline at the time. If only I’d waited a few months before starting – I could have saved myself a LOT of time and effort detailing the undercarriage bays and cockpit! The kit comes with the right props I think, and I’d spotted the windows, but thanks for pointing them out anyway.

Since I live near Glasgow and am currently working in Belfast I think a visit to the National Archives at Kew is unlikely but I’ve contacted DORIS and will pass on any info I receive. (I should also probably admit to initially thinking DORIS was a woman who works for the RAFM. I’m now searching for a round room so I can hide in the corner. . . .)

Graeme

P.S. Phantom Phixer – Thanks for the offer, PM sent.

H2S??

Was the rear light not mounted in the former position of the H2s on the belly?

Had H2S been introduced by the time of the Dambuster operation?
Max

There’s a lot of misleading information out there on the Dams Lancs. The following may be of interest.

March 1970 Scale Models.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=70629

Was the rear light not mounted in the former position of the H2s on the belly?

Drop me a PM with your address I have some magazine articles that tell you how to improve the airfix lanc and they answer some of your questions and others you may have while doing your project. Will send you some photocopies.

Regards Martin

I have a recollection that the front spot light was in the camera bay at the back end of the nose.

Hello GroundedPilot.

I trust that you’re using the new Revell Lanc to produce your model.

If you can get your hands on the bomb bay insert from the Airfix Dams Lanc,the holding arms and mine from the ancient Revell “Dambuster” Lanc kit and combine them with the new Revell B.I/B.III kit then you’ll have a very good basis to work with.

The Airfix Dams bomb bay is said to be spot on,but the arms and mine are poor.

The old Revell kit’s holding arms(the big “V” struts)and mine are said to be very accurate.

Oh,use Airfix’s main wheels too.They’re miles better(much more accurate)than Revell’s.

AFAIK,the spotlights were fitted just ahead and just aft of the bomb bay,but I couldn’t be certain if this is the correct position.

Mark

“And don’t forget you need all the fuselage windows in place, plus the early style pitot head, and (I’m pretty certain) needle blade propellors.”

I’m sure you know this already, but I can confirm the Lancasters of 617 squadron were all fitted with needle blade props.
Max

Just athought, but as at least one of the Upkeep mod B1 specials spent some time at Boscombe Down there may be a report containing a weights and cg table which will list all the equipments fitted and their location in the fuselage.
Maybe worth a trip to the National Archive at Kew or contacting the Information Warehouse at Boscombe (yes, such a place exists).

1. Ventral turret.

Was this fitted to Gibson’s aircraft and if so what would it look like from the outside?

No, apparently the idea was dropped. Maybe only the prototypes had this installation.

4. Forward fuselage aerials.

I’m afraid I don’t know what these are for

They are B.A.B.S. aerials, as seen on the Lancasters in the 1954 film, but not fitted to the original Dams Raid machines.

5. Rear fuselage aerial.

Again I don’t know what this was for

They are aerials for the Lorenz blind landing system. All the photos of Upkeep machines I’ve seen suggest that they had these.

6. Mid fuselage intake.

I feel like I know what this is (honest) but It’s not coming to me at the moment. I

It was an improved design of air intake for the cabin heating system, but did not feature on Lancs until 1944/45. You don’t want it on your model.

2. Lower fuselage spotlights

I know the answer to this, but I cannot remember what it is! There are different versions mentioned in print, so it’s easy to be misled. Try contacting DORIS at the RAF Museum. They have a copy of a document titled Instructions for fitting of spotlights to Type 464 Lancasters (DC 72/28), as well as other info.

3. Bomb aimer’s position.

Good question, I’ve often wondered about that myself. There would seem little point in retaining the Distributor and Pre-selector etc, but presumably the bomb switch would still be in situ. Again, DORIS might be able to supply the info.

If you find out, please come back and tell us!

And don’t forget you need all the fuselage windows in place, plus the early style pitot head, and (I’m pretty certain) needle blade propellors. I’m also pretty sure that the aerial for the VHF wireless was installed low down on the starboard side of the nose, but I cannot pinpoint the exact spot.

My understanding is that the Dams Lancs were not fitted with the ventral turret as such. Instead they had a single 0.303 Vickers K gun fitted in the ventral position, firing through an aperture in the floor. Kneeling pads on the floor were provided for the gunner. This feature was included in Tamiya’s 1976 1/48 scale model of the Dambuster Lanc (not now available).

Revell’s first 1/72 scale Dambusters Lanc (early Sixties) featured a ventral turret with two Brownings but I believe this was an error.

Colin

Hi all, I’m working on a model of a Dambusters Lancaster (specifically Gibson’s – not very imaginative I know) and I have a few technical questions I’m hoping someone here can help with, mostly relating to external details. Any information I have has come from the Modeller’s Datafile on the Lancaster.

3. Bomb aimer’s position.

The standard bomb-sight was obviously removed so it wouldn’t get in the way of the ultra-high-tech wood-and-nails version that was used for the raid (all the best solutions are painfully simple), but what about the other equipment boxes in the nose? Were they removed too, leaving bare walls or was that not deemed worth the effort?

Graeme

I am no lanc expert but I seem to remember something about at least some crews developing their own ‘bomb sight’ and did not use the normally accepted ‘film’ type.possibly some crews just marked the front glass!!

cheers baz