Dambuster Upkeep in the making

Peter Jackson?:confused:

Give Peter Jackson a ring…..? Just “the one ring” ? As for shipment…mark it as MINE. If the customs query it then its simple to explain…you just say that what you mean is that its “mine” and I am sending it to “him”. :diablo: Problem solved.

Yes, the USAAF sent an A-26 over to Brooklands, and it was fitted with a standard Highball installation (the codename for the A-26 installation was Speedee, but it was physically identical to Highball). The A-26 did a series of test drops in the sea near Eglin AFB in Florida; one of Wallis’ men was there for some of them. On several drops, the A-26 was VERY low (under 10 feet) and on the 28th April 1945, the bomb hit the tail with fatal consequences.

Thanks for that information.

How was the dropping height measured (in daylight) with the A-26 and Mosquito?

Good points Iain.

First – Quite probably. MacArthur was also keen to ensure all the PR was gathered by US units and certainly kept Australian, Dutch and British forces involved in pointless sideshows if he could.

Second – The Italians developed it ‘in theatre’, but promoted it widely; it certainly cost some RN ships. The US units in the Pacific, likewise (AFAIK) developed it in theatre – I don’t think it was an ‘official’ USN or USAAF technique, but bear in mind the Pacific campaign was very much driven by what worked as discovered by the units, rather than what the Brass (back in America) thought they should be doing. The RAAF and Dutch units certainly undertook similar techniques with mediums – all using B-25s / Mitchells and Bostons / A-20s. Who taught who, and if the Pacific units knew of the Italian efforts I don’t know.

Third – My going off on a tangent, sorry. I was trying to say the Americans might have lost an A-20 by error, but they sunk a lot of ships skip-bombing while 618 had no effect on the enemy (through no fault of their own). Thanks for adding some details, though.

Cheers

Highball and the Americans

The RAF were paranoid the Japanese would return ‘Highball’ (how? Why?) mothballing 618 Sqn in Australia rather than using them.

My understanding from the literature is that it was the Americans who had this worry, and since they were “in charge of the theatre”, it was they who stopped Highball being used. Most of the big Japanese capital ships were gone anyway, so the Americans had more to lose.

and brought to a fine art by the Americans in the Pacific.

Is there any literature on doing skip-bombing with standard bombs? Was it a technique that was trained for?

To think the American bomber forces were in any way inadequate because they rejected fancy weapons is to miss one reason the Allies won the war and the Germans didn’t.

My comment was in regard to the Americans managing to hit their own plane with the weapon after only a few attempts, while the RAF didn’t manage it at all despite many more “attempts”! To be fair there, an MAEE Mosquito did manage to hit itself with Highball in post-war tests (with similarly fatal results). At Eglin, there was a problem with the film processing lab, which meant that the pilot could not see footage of his recent drops, otherwise they reckon he might have realised he was cutting it a bit fine!

Regards,

Iain.

Fascinating stuff folks! Lots of ‘new-to-me’ here.

The A26 crash was actual footage of an American test of Upkeep with obviously disastrous results. They immediately put it in the “too hard” basket.The Germans also tested various versions including a rocket propelled one. It`s interesting that although the British obviously had Upkeep and Highball, the Americans and the Germans had the technology, but the idea was never again used operationally.

It is worth noting that, in hundred of Highball drops done by 618 Squadron, there were no incidents in which a Mosquito was even damaged during a drop – trust the Americans to muck it up!

The RAF were paranoid the Japanese would return ‘Highball’ (how? Why?) mothballing 618 Sqn in Australia rather than using them. Meanwhile torpedo bombing had become effectively too risky (conventional) or complex (guided torpedoes) and with a high loss rate, ‘special’ weapons were just replaced by skip-bombing, initially perfected by the Italians with Ju-87s in the Med, and brought to a fine art by the Americans in the Pacific. To be fair to the Yanks, why bother with fancy Limey weapons? To think the American bomber forces were in any way inadequate because they rejected fancy weapons is to miss one reason the Allies won the war and the Germans didn’t. Lots of simple stuff beats new odd stuff. (sort of. 😉 )

Cheers

Locations where you can see Upkeeps, Tallboys etc.

There must be dozens (OK, maybe a dozen or so) somewhere

There is a list of sites with Upkeeps, Highballs, Tallboys, Grand Slams and other items related to Barnes Wallis at:
http://www.computing.dundee.ac.uk/staff/irmurray/wallissites.asp

Any additions or corrections welcome!

Regards, Iain.

Yes, I knew of this incident (but didn’t know it happened twice).
I’m certain no Lancaster (or Wellington) was lost during trials with Upkeep…
…but the A-26 is a mystery to me.
Apart from seeing this footage I’ve never heard any mention of it.
Was it a USAAF trial with Highball?

Yes, the USAAF sent an A-26 over to Brooklands, and it was fitted with a standard Highball installation (the codename for the A-26 installation was Speedee, but it was physically identical to Highball). The A-26 did a series of test drops in the sea near Eglin AFB in Florida; one of Wallis’ men was there for some of them. On several drops, the A-26 was VERY low (under 10 feet) and on the 28th April 1945, the bomb hit the tail with fatal consequences. American interest in the weapon then faded; there was only one converted A-26 anyway.

It is worth noting that, in hundred of Highball drops done by 618 Squadron, there were no incidents in which a Mosquito was even damaged during a drop – trust the Americans to muck it up!

Regards,

Iain.

The A26 crash was actual footage of an American test of Upkeep with obviously disastrous results. They immediately put it in the “too hard” basket.The Germans also tested various versions including a rocket propelled one. It`s interesting that although the British obviously had Upkeep and Highball, the Americans and the Germans had the technology, but the idea was never again used operationally.
Simmo

Cheers.

Thanks for the update…And god rest the souls lost on that night…..

Will have to search but IIRC a 617 crashed with an upkeep on the way to the target.The load didn,t go off like it was supposed to and the Jerries were presented with a nice slightly burnt example that they copied but couldn,t get to work…No cricketers in Germany apparently.:diablo:

This was ED927/AJ-E piloted by Flight Lieutenant Barlow that was part of the second wave which had the Sorpe dam as their target. Barlow’s low flying aircraft caught fire and crashed after flying into high tension cables. The machine was destroyed and the crew were all killed. The Upkeep store broke free in the crash and was examined the next day by the Germans. A report on the device was sent to Goering by Albert Speer on June 17.

The crew of ED927 were: Flight Lieutenant Robert Norman George Barlow, DFC, RAAF; Pilot Officer Samuel Leslie Whillis, RAFVR; Flying Officer Philip Sydney Burgess, RAFVR; Pilot Officer Alan Gillespie, DFM, RAFVR; Flying Officer Charles Rowland Williams, DFC, RAAF; Flying Officer Harvey Sterling Glinz, RCAF; Sergeant Jack Robert George Liddell, RAFVR. They are all buried in Reichswald Forest War Cemetery, Germany.

Will have to search but IIRC a 617 crashed with an upkeep on the way to the target.The load didn,t go off like it was supposed to and the Jerries were presented with a nice slightly burnt example that they copied but couldn,t get to work…No cricketers in Germany apparently.:diablo:

Operationally Upkeep was fitted with a time-delayed demolition-fuse (acid type) that was designed to stop it falling into enemy hands.

I don’t know when this fuse was activated (presumably before flying over enemy territory) but in this case it obviously didn’t have the desired effect.

I did hear a story that the Lancaster in question was completely destroyed and next morning the local mayor and civic dignitaries were standing around admiring their ‘fuel tank’ trophy…

…until some Luftwaffe personnel arrived and told them what it was!

Incidentally this was where ‘public’ details of Upkeep first emerged as the Luftwaffe did a detailed evaluation of Upkeep complete with drawings and this report was available well before the 1975 release of the British ‘secret’ files.

WA$.

Will have to search but IIRC a 617 crashed with an upkeep on the way to the target.The load didn,t go off like it was supposed to and the Jerries were presented with a nice slightly burnt example that they copied but couldn,t get to work…No cricketers in Germany apparently.:diablo:

From the Wiki page on “Upkeep”:

After the raid the Germans discovered an Upkeep bomb that had failed to explode lying in some woods and subsequently a 385 kg (850 pound) version of the bouncing bomb was also attempted by the Luftwaffe. Designed for use against British shipping, it was given the codename Kurt, and was built at the Luftwaffe Experimental Centre in Travemünde. In trials, dropped by an Fw 190 it proved to be dangerous to the delivering planes as the bomb matched the speed at which it was dropped. Attempts to rectify this with booster rockets were ultimately a failure, and the project was discontinued in 1944.

German Upkeep.

Will have to search but IIRC a 617 crashed with an upkeep on the way to the target.The load didn,t go off like it was supposed to and the Jerries were presented with a nice slightly burnt example that they copied but couldn,t get to work…No cricketers in Germany apparently.:diablo:

Having leafed through John Sweetman’s “The Dambusters Raid” looking for details about the American bouncing bombs and the incident where a Lanc was damaged by spray, I’ve ended up finding an answer to my earlier question about the bombs’ colour. Writing about the preperations made for the raid by Mick Martin’s crew, Sweetman states that they painted their bomb black once it had been loaded onto the aircraft. The bombs were apparently green when delivered.
So there you go…

Green and mean!!!! amazing 😎

Ahh

There is footage (on that same website) showing a dummy Upkeep hitting the water – the resulting plume hitting and damaging the tail of the Lancaster that dropped it, although according to the notes on the film the crew got home.

Ahh that must be it then i remembered seeing water hit the tail, memorys not what it was. Anyway Im glad they got home.

Having leafed through John Sweetman’s “The Dambusters Raid” looking for details about the American bouncing bombs and the incident where a Lanc was damaged by spray, I’ve ended up finding an answer to my earlier question about the bombs’ colour. Writing about the preperations made for the raid by Mick Martin’s crew, Sweetman states that they painted their bomb black once it had been loaded onto the aircraft. The bombs were apparently green when delivered.
So there you go…

Yes there is Graham – try the previous page on the same website! It was one of the 617 Sqn Lancs – the plume hit the tail, and I think it jammed the elevators – and I seem to recall the aircraft was flown back to Manston and landed safely using elevator trim.

There is footage (on that same website) showing a dummy Upkeep hitting the water – the resulting plume hitting and damaging the tail of the Lancaster that dropped it, although according to the notes on the film the crew got home.

Yes, I knew of this incident (but didn’t know it happened twice).

I’m certain no Lancaster (or Wellington) was lost during trials with Upkeep…

…but the A-26 is a mystery to me.

Apart from seeing this footage I’ve never heard any mention of it.

Was it a USAAF trial with Highball?

WA$.

There is footage (on that same website) showing a dummy Upkeep hitting the water – the resulting plume hitting and damaging the tail of the Lancaster that dropped it, although according to the notes on the film the crew got home.

I am sure i have similar

I am sure i have seen it happen on the upkeep tests as it comes back to me I belive it was the plume of water caused by the bomb not the bomb itself that did the fatal damage, perhaps we are talking about two seperate events? has to be a search on the net, I bet theres a video clip out there somewhere.