Dangerous dogs or stupid owners?

So ,if a child goes up to a animal tugs at it’s fur,makes a strange noise etc and it reacts it’s the animals fault?

You want me to say it again…?

YOUR FAULT. You allowed a dangerous situation to develop. You did not train your dog properly. You allowed a child to go near your dog without understanding what could happen; you wouldn’t allow a kid to run around with a Samurai sword unsheathed, why let your dog?

Derekf did ask how babies fitted into your chosen scenario.

They don’t, so he is ignoring any possibility that disagrees with his position – ie children are always to blame, whatever.

In the 30s eugenics was seriously discussed by many…and not just Nazis.
If 2ist century society does wants to continue to be a welfare state, at some point money is going to run out unless some attempts are made to curb the part of society that takes more than it contributes.
I’m not calling these measure, but at some point….it will probably become necessary.

So the kind of political viewpoint that encourages this extreme measure…what might you call it? One that allows a section of society to become useless, wasted, unnecessary, undervalued even…?
I can guess your angle, since you chose to ignore that the Nazis picked people that they regarded as worthless – Jews, Slavs, East Europeans and Russians, the handicapped, the ‘sexually deviant’, anyone who opposed them – and chose that which you regard as worthless in todays society – a welfare state.
It is always easiest to pick on those who weld no power, who have no position in society with which to defend themselves, just as it is easy to ignore them and encourage their worthlessness in your friends and associates by doing little or nothing to help them become worthwhile members of society – maybe by the creation of jobs so that they can earn money and lift themselves from the benefits pit? But no, that doesn’t happen; just ignore the problem and hope it will go away, whilst making plans for mass sterilisation and maybe euthanasia too rather than throw a little money into a solution to the problem.

No, eugenics goes back further than the 1930s; the idea has its modern roots with Francis Galton, who published his book Hereditary Genius in 1869. And, bringing this post back to the thread, what do you think dog breeders aims are when bringing two ‘perfect’ specimens together?

At the risk of invoking Godwins law, that is not a million miles away from something that the Nazis tried.

In the 30s eugenics was seriously discussed by many…and not just Nazis.
If 2ist century society does wants to continue to be a welfare state, at some point money is going to run out unless some attempts are made to curb the part of society that takes more than it contributes.
I’m not calling these measure, but at some point….it will probably become necessary.

So ,if a child goes up to a animal tugs at it’s fur,makes a strange noise etc and it reacts it’s the animals fault?

Derekf did ask how babies fitted into your chosen scenario.

So ,if a child goes up to a animal tugs at it’s fur,makes a strange noise etc and it reacts it’s the animals fault?

Obviously you are not a dog lover…;o)

They were guilty!

I bet most attacks by dogs on children are child invoked but they don’t make the headlines so you don’t get the dogs side of things.Headlines sell but child teasing,abusing, the dog who then reacts the only way it knows how doesn’t have the same sensationalist impact.
If children cant be trusted with an animal then the parents should keep the child away or teach it correctly.

I’m struggling to see how a sleeping 11 month old baby or a 6 day old baby could provoke a dog.

it’s the animals fault.

No. If your dog attacks somebody, whether through provocation or just for the hell of it, it is your fault.

Like a gun you cannot blame a dog for the way it is used; you can blame the owner for not being trained or for poor handling, but then you need to ask – just like a gun – if that dog (that sweet, loveable, big old softy who wouldn’t harm a fly) was really necessary or was it just there to massage your wimpy ego.

I have a 19month old daughter who has the hugest smiles and gives wonderfully loving cuddles, who loves dogs (and cats, even tortoises!) but when one comes bounding up to her and the owner says it is fine for her to stroke the doggy I am on edge, ready to throw myself onto that potentially savage beast and save my daughter. She knows our rescue cats are quite contrary since one will have a swipe at her when he is in a foul mood and he thinks I’m not watching (and he knows too, since he has been tossed out into the rain for the night at least once as punishment, which is why he watches me too). But domestic cats DO NOT have the same attack capabilities as a dog: that one in America the other month was a one off, unlike all those other dog attacks that you can read about every other week.
Even apparently well trained dogs can flip – that police dog that attacked an arrested man, lying on the ground in Weston-Super-Mare, was obviously not under the control of its handler (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-27298762) when it lunged and grabbed the man, dragging him along by his shoulder – so what dog can you really trust?

The great philospher Zebedee got it right…

???
And if a dog cannot be trusted, what then?

Hell, a child pulling a dogs tail doesn’t make the headlines; a dog savaging and/or killing a child is not a good PR exercise for canines or their owners – it makes the headlines, whether the dog was abused, fed or not fed, trained or not trained.

I am having a huge amount of forum problems with the reply box so probably going to pretty much give up on it now.Snafu –as ever you are correct–everything is everyone elses fault–doesn’t matter if the child threatens/hurts an animal ,it’s the animals fault.

I bet most attacks by dogs on children are child invoked but they don’t make the headlines so you don’t get the dogs side of things.Headlines sell but child teasing,abusing, the dog who then reacts the only way it knows how doesn’t have the same sensationalist impact.
If children cant be trusted with an animal then the parents should keep the child away or teach it correctly.

???
And if a dog cannot be trusted, what then?

Hell, a child pulling a dogs tail doesn’t make the headlines; a dog savaging and/or killing a child is not a good PR exercise for canines or their owners – it makes the headlines, whether the dog was abused, fed or not fed, trained or not trained.

Oh no, no, no. You give up,’.

Very true, and it’s because (to misquote the advert slightly) you’re not worth it.

And idiot owners should not assume that all children are comfortable around dogs. When my daughter was three a dog jumped at her with the idiot owner’s comment “he’s only playing”. Brilliant. My daughter was for a while terrified of dogs and only recently is she able to go anywhere near dogs (she’s now ten).

Some examples of where the child was very definitely not to blame.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26131934

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/04/welsh-police-put-down-alaskan-malamute-mauled-baby

Dog to blame? – Definitely
Owners to blame? – probably
Child to blame? No

I bet most attacks by dogs on children are child invoked but they don’t make the headlines so you don’t get the dogs side of things.Headlines sell but child teasing,abusing, the dog who then reacts the only way it knows how doesn’t have the same sensationalist impact.
If children cant be trusted with an animal then the parents should keep the child away or teach it correctly.

God, grow up Snafu! I suppose you spit fuming bile over Mel Brooks for the Profucers. If you really think my post was serious you need a brain transplant and you certainly need to quit your cringe making preachy mode.

No, since that was an obvious comedy made by a recognised comedy writer starring comedians (although they did spell it differently…).
My cringe making preachy mode doesn’t seem to have made you recognise that what you typed was offensive. Try looking at it from the view of, say, a concentration camp inmate and less like one of the doctors.

You cant argue or debate with Snafu- he is always right and everyone who objects is wrong.

You can argue or debate, and I love it when you tell me (and everyone else) that I’m right. But with Charlie making such a crass statement (apparently said humorously!) is defence of your original crass statement (no, I hadn’t forgotten you) and defending himself by implying I need a brain transplant (hardly a suitable comeback, given the nature of the original remark and the gist of the Nazi medical experiments mentioned previously) there is hardly a right or wrong about it.

But please, tell me where I am wrong.

It’s taken you lot long enough to work that one out.

Oh no, no, no. You give up, throw your teddy out of your playpen and delete your posts, Edgar, since your opinion so far is that I am wrong and you are right. And we are even in that regard, apparently – except I don’t delete my posts and create havoc.
Answers are not black or white, but views can be changed and you have not made a single post that caused me to alter my view. Maybe I have not altered your view either, but I will have made some of you think, wonder about the world at large, maybe wonder (for example) whether it is right that they should joke about the Nazis having the right idea about the treatment of those they regarded as lower then themselves, scum.

Instead of always blaming dog owners, some parents should educate their brats on how to behave around dogs. For example, parents should teach their brats that dogs are not playthings, dogs should not be grabbed from behind, dogs should not have their tails and ears pulled, dogs should not be jumped on, dogs should not have sticks waved in their faces. Every time a kid is bitten by a dog the owner gets the blame, but when you look into what caused the dog to bite you often hear that they have been teased by the brat while the parents looked on.

And the dogs that observed their owners giving more attention to the new born baby and seemingly decide to kill off the opposition?
How about Clifford Clarke, the pensioner in the story at the beginning of this thread (did you even read it?), who did nothing except have a door open and ended up with his arms either torn off or hanging by a sinew, to die in agony because the dogs owners were stupid, stupid idiots?
Millions of dogs have lived around children, suffering probably, yet mercifully few have been savaged or killed no matter how much provocation there has been. Dog owners need to be in control of their animal at all times – dogs are pack animals and their owners should be the leader of the pack, but if they aren’t then the dog has a potential behaviour problem.
If there is the remotest chance that the dog is dangerous then it should be muzzled: if one child (no matter how much you object to it, or its race, creed, colour or behaviour) is saved because of muzzling then it has to have been worth it – to say different must surely be crazy, like allowing you to keep a mature lion or tiger and take it for walks in the local recreation ground whilst claiming that ‘it wouldn’t harm a fly, it’s just a big baby really…’.

And idiot owners should not assume that all children are comfortable around dogs. When my daughter was three a dog jumped at her with the idiot owner’s comment “he’s only playing”. Brilliant. My daughter was for a while terrified of dogs and only recently is she able to go anywhere near dogs (she’s now ten).

Some examples of where the child was very definitely not to blame.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26131934

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/04/welsh-police-put-down-alaskan-malamute-mauled-baby

Dog to blame? – Definitely
Owners to blame? – probably
Child to blame? No

Instead of always blaming dog owners, some parents should educate their brats on how to behave around dogs. For example, parents should teach their brats that dogs are not playthings, dogs should not be grabbed from behind, dogs should not have their tails and ears pulled, dogs should not be jumped on, dogs should not have sticks waved in their faces. Every time a kid is bitten by a dog the owner gets the blame, but when you look into what caused the dog to bite you often hear that they have been teased by the brat while the parents looked on.

You cant argue or debate with Snafu- he is always right and everyone who objects is wrong.

It’s taken you lot long enough to work that one out.

Hi All,
It doesn’t matter how well behaved or trained a dog is it could at any time revert to basic instincts just like humans do.

Geoff.

Quite true – I’ll leave this to others as it seems to have drifted well off topic, anyway.

You cant argue or debate with Snafu- he is always right and everyone who objects is wrong.

God, grow up Snafu! I suppose you spit fuming bile over Mel Brooks for the Profucers. If you really think my post was serious you need a brain transplant and you certainly need to quit your cringe making preachy mode.