Dartford -Thames crossing

Probably not. Just plenty of previous experience dealing with alleged innovation !

A glass half empty man, I see, TA!!:D

Starts tomorrow everyone
chaos will ensue

https://www.gov.uk/pay-dartford-crossing-charge

First things first Charlie. Let’s deal with and cure all the simple problems first and then we might gain sufficient expertise to solve the complex ones.

Like the common cold rather than cancer, or maybe ebola…?

It will be interesting to judge the level of success or failure after the first month of operation. At the moment we are anticipating levels of failure comments made. I’ll report back after I’ve used it in a couple of weeks time….

First things first Charlie. Let’s deal with and cure all the simple problems first and then we might gain sufficient expertise to solve the complex ones.

Whether I am or not, Paul, I am sure that must be the case. I still wish it well – it’s a major and complex project and deserves to succeed for the benefit of all its users.

Re 9

Blimey ! I’m more than impressed. All that, and we can’t even repair our roads !

Yes, I had no idea how involved the software side of the Dartford project was, and I imagine many others also assumed it was simply an ANPR type system to identify vehicles passing through the crossing and a bolt-on billing program to ensure tolls were paid within 24hrs, and any non-payments followed up etc.

The thought that commercial vehicles had to be sorted and managed by virtue of their (potentially hazardous) cargo simply hadn’t ocurred to me until my contact explained what was involved.

As you say, given we can barely maintain a few pot-holes, or keep M25 running smoothly, the chances of “Barrier-less Dartford” running smoothly in the early days look to be somewhat slim.

Still, with so many “players” involved, hardware suppliers, software engineers, DVLA (system will need access to DVLA database), Civil engineering contractors et al I am sure there will be much opportunity for ‘finger-pointing’ and passing blame on to others when the glitches appear. Not that that will help the poor souls stuck in the traffic jams that result…

Charlie, you may indeed be correct, Dartford crossing may be privately owned – if so I am sure HMG/Highways Agency are still closely involved – a major trunk route bottleneck like that must be one they want to keep close tabs on. No doubt it’s one of those pieces of road infrastructure that is “Managed by xyz on behalf of Highways Agency”.

Re 9

Blimey ! I’m more than impressed. All that, and we can’t even repair our roads !

Neither do I and it is to be hoped that teathing problems will be speedily resolved. And just to be clear – the project has nothing to do with the Government has it? The crossings are privately owned and managed aren’t they?

I’m not personally involved in the project, but I do know someone who is, and who has been at some “interesting” project meetings where he says it is clear there are/were still a few aspects that seemed to leave room for improvement.

A interesting points to consider…

The automated system has to be able to cope with detecting not only vehicle index (registration plates) so as to track payment, but also has to be able to find and thn “read” haz-chem warning plates on commercial vehicles.

It has to identify any northbound commercial vehicles carrying hazardous chemicals (as declared via their haz-chem plates) that need to be sent to a corral because they are carrying hazardous/restricted chemicals and need to be escorted through the northbound tunnels due to the safety risk…

It has to do all those operations without fail (or at worst with a very high degree of accuracy) on many hundreds of vehicles per hour…in all weathers (driving rain, motorway spray, thick fog, heavy snow, night-time etc).

Assuming vehicles can approach the crossing in any lane, the system also has to ensure that any such “hazardous” vehicles are directed to the relevant lanes before they reach the barriers… and also ensure that if any such vehicle reaches the barriers in an inappropriate lane the relevant barrier will close and stay down to stop the vehicle entering the tunnel unaccompanied. So it would not be impossibe for a driver to be heading for a correct barrier only to find the vehicle in front is not in an appropriate lane, and that the barrier closed to prevent the vehicle ahead passing through. How many drivers will then happily wait for the prblem to be resolved, rather than try to change lanes to avoid the delay?

Add in the fact that, I am told, the two northbound tunnel bores are different heights, and so all ‘over-height’ northbound vehicles approaching the crossing have to be identified and then directed into the relevant lanes for an appropriate tunnel …. or be stopped by barriers if approaching the incorrect tunnel bore…

Add in complexity that the crossing carries a disproprotionately high number of non-UK plated vehicles (given the proximity to entry points at in Dover and Channel tunnel), and that (theoretically at least) the system will have to identify and record all overseas index plates regardless of format, so that (theoretically at least) the DoT or whomever can pursue any non-payment by foreign vehicles. Maybe it is pure coincidence that the %age increase in the crossing toll is almost the same as the %age of foreign vehicles using the crossing every day – thus even if all foreign vehicles “accidentally” forget to pay their tolls, and payments were not pursued/never collected, then the daily revenue will not fall? 😉

So, all in all, the software will need a very “smart” character and symbol recognition system, and clever logic rules embedded in the program, that can do all the necessary recognition and data processing in the relatively short time available between last possible access point on northbound approach to the crossing, such that all vehicles are correctly identified, and directed into an appropriate lane by the time each vehicles reaches the barrier line itself – I understand the barriers will stay in place as a means of controlling flow if/when needed, though (theoretically at least) they should stay open (or open automatically) if every vehicles approaches an apropriate barrier.

The software/signage and cameras also have to be able to handle the (not too infrequent) periods when the southbound crossing (QE2 bridge) is closed due to high winds, when all southbound traffic has to pass through the eastern-most pair of tunnels. And let’s not forget the complexity of the transition period whenever the bridge (or any of the tunnel bores) are in process of being closed/reopened…

Oh, and last I heard, the traffic-software company handling the software have no previous experience of installing a system that can handle quite such a complex set of “rules” that the Dartford crossing program needs to follow in order to manage all the above points… The software company has installed earlier versions of their software in some of the Alps road tunnels (I understand), but non of the applications to date have had to handle so many variables, an/or so many vehicle movements per hour, and/or such a short stretch of tarmac in which to process data and implement any necessary traffic “management” via gantry signage etc.

So, no doubt it will all run smoothly, just like so many other Government mega-projects ( 😉 )….

As my contact says, if everything works perfectly, all the time, then the new set up will be great…but all it will take is for a few cameras to fail or to misread plates (in poor visibility), or for the software or computer hardware to hiccup, a few power glitches, a few vehicles to approach with unreadable index plates or haz chem plates ( e.g due to dried salt spray residue), or for drivers not to follow gantry instructions directed at their vehicle (by accient or by intent), and it could all get a little “messy” very quickly…

And if there is ever a road accident that compromises one (or more) of the camera gantries (or matrix signs that will manage traffic flows) then they too will have to be repaired before the system is back at full operating spec.

Im sure it will all be okay in the end, or when it is running smoothly …… but I’m really glad I don’t have to use Dartford too regularly myself!

I meant to add it’s well worth setting up in advance and paying in advance as it will only cost £1.67 for a car but £2.50 after a crossing.

You have 24 hours to pay after your crossing.

What happens if you drive up without a tag?

I think they’ve been sending out details of the changes, with your car tax renewal reminder.

900 hours?

147,000x 15secs saved a day! Unless someone hits the concrete. 😀
mmitch.

They have been announced for quite a while and will make ax world of difference hopefully all but eliminating the lengthy delays many of us have suffered over the years.