Dassault Mystere IVA Survivors

Mystere by Tony Taylor, on Flickr

Mystere waiting by Tony Taylor, on Flickr

……….how about a mysterious outbreak of disappearing air-frames? Worked, I mean is alleged to have worked for

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Technical_Museum,_Peenem%C3%BCnde

In 1990 as the East German Air Force was dissolving JG9 at Peenemunde were told to get rid of the historic air-frames they held and that all their Floggers were going to be scraped. Very mysteriously just before they were due to be binned a Fished, Flogger and Faggot (and perhaps a Farmer) vanished over the course of the week. In totally unconnected news an unknown group of people were alleged to have access to a large former electricity generating plant with a freight lift large enough to take huge cargoes……some say it was big enough to take a fully assembled Flogger….

The Luftwaffe rolled-up to make sure the demolitions had been carried-out, but shock horror, no one could find four aircraft……the Luftwaffe searched the airfield with the expected German level of thoughtfulness but found nothing, and there were no witnesses. Ah well, probably been stolen for scrap, who was that bothered about a pile of obsolete aluminium anyway? Case closed, Molder and Skully not available.

Totally unrelated fact, a while after the Luftwaffe had give up and written off the air-frames aircraft that couldn’t possibly have been the missing ones were found and donated to the museum. The case had been closed, the paperwork was done, the station was closed no-one in the Luftwaffe was interested.

Perhaps history might repeat itself again? If not with the Mystere perhaps the F100, all it would take is some disreputable ex-RAF types, a foggy night, a convenient shed/HAS and a case of Schultheiss……..Everyone’s happy, the Museum’s lost an eyesore, The Americans no longer have to count something that’s ‘missing’ and can be written-off the books and a totally unrelated air-frame mysteriously appears somewhere it can be loved and appreciated

It is not just the terms of the loan it is the ever increasing value of the airframes on the NMUSAF books

If they were to be written down to their scrap value there would be an lot less duty to pay and perhaps a solution to the ownership issue

It also does not help that the loans are for one year at a time

Merkel -I think you are confusing two separate issues.

ITAR are the rules governing the export of equipment – dual use products and information. The US enforces these rules to ensure that equipment doesn’t end up in the wrong hands . Therefore if a British Apache helicopter needs an American part – it is exported from the U.S to the U.K under the terms of ITAR.
Contravening ITAR has big penalties.
You are not going to change anything about it.

The F-100 – T-33 – Mystere are on loan from NMUSAF. Therefore still U.S government property. Nothing within these airframe has anything to do with
ITAR as they are obsolete and have no potential military re-use.

So in essence the issue is only of airframes on loan and the terms of that agreement -nothing else.

merkle, one critical item in all of this has not changed since 1976/77 – certain aircraft concerned F100s & T33s were manufactured outside the EU, which is why they would be liable to taxation if they were gifted/donated.

This issue does not just apply to the USAF loaned aircraft. I dealt with similar issues with the Safir (1982) & Draken (1994), where the same rules applied i.e. original country of manufacture,Sweden was not within the EU. However the Viggen (2005/6) was acquired after Sweden joined the EU and was a simple movement of goods matter, with just an End User Certificate being issued, which I actually typed myself and posted off.

As I have posted on here before, post-Brexit things could get interesting. You only have to look at the other thread concerning import tariffs on aircraft & helicopter parts to see the complexities involved.

All that said the ‘elephants in the room’ are the Dassault Mysteres – built in France but paid for by the Americans; always understood that the same rules applied!

Good luck with your quest to get things changed.

Twin Otter , I’ve never doubted your word , and was told the same when I visited the Coventry Museum .
All I am getting at is how things might have changed for these aircraft ,I too feel sorry for the staff of the NMUSAF , these hulks are a pain for them , but there hands are tied by there protocol ,America doesn’t have the influence it had in the 80s in the UK , I have an idea , and I am going to try it. I have friends in the RAF who have said these rulings cause problems for everyone and even they are not sure if the legalality of it all 30 years later. Nothing will get done until someone pushes the question to the NMUSAF , it is a lot easier for them just to send someone in and scrap it . But if this issue is brought up enough perhaps they will finally get around the table and at least discuss a way forward , but I feel this will only happen as with any Govt Dept when they are pushed into a corner to deal with it

I can only really talk of my own personal involvement & that includes travelling to Sculthorpe in 1977 & 1978 to help dismantle all three types mentioned in my OP; plus dealing with more recent valuations for insurance purposes.

That said, I have also ‘heard’ stories of supposed ‘incursions’ onto sites in the UK to inspect ‘loaned’ American aircraft, when the recipient organisation was allegedly not ‘co-operating’. However that is only second hand information that some today might say was ‘Fake News’!

I dont doubt aircraft with there original “Tenants” would not be constantly means tested, but just a few of them seem to have fallen by the wayside for instance Andrewsfield, then two aircraft at Headcorn (Now in the hands of a PRIVATE individual “How did this happen, and shows it is possible)
however if they were given they would have to pay import duties. The only way round this would be to put them on loan from the USAF museum with a stipulation that they would be maintained. However that was the early 1980s so now there have been changes in groups and the interest in them is on the wane. I seriously doubt the USAFM have had any paperwork returns on the Andrewsfield machine in years .

merkle, the F100s, T33s and Mysteres were not donated (that would have triggered the tax implications) they are all on long-term loan; something that Newark was instrumental in setting up in 1976/7.

Also I think you’ll find that most museums have to complete an annual return to report the condition of the aircraft; they are also advised of a value that the aircraft need to be insured for, which changes annually.

In recent time I also understand that teams from America have been visiting museums to check on these loaned exhibits.

Addendum to respond to David’s post: several years ago there was an initiative in place for a common policy/meeting with the Americans; this was cancelled IIRC just 48 hours before it was due to take place; I was due to attend on behalf of Newark.

The reality is that the NMUSAF entered into an agreement which allowed UK groups at the time to avoid paying duties by retaining ownership. Its not the NMUSAF’s fault that various groups over the years have failed and left aircraft orphaned. Reality for them is they have probably hundreds of aircraft scattered around the U.S and abroad. Administration of them must pose significant issues.

How the situation could be eased would be if a UK aircraft preservation body talked to the NMUSAF and came to some kind of agreement to administer and assist with disposal options as clearly a few of these airframes are clearly not going to make it long term. It could also assist with relocation where machines could have a better relevance.

Being NMUSAF , have really had no contact with many of the airfields , especially the private ones for many years and
Provided that a land owner has the RIGHT under British law to charge storage costs , with many asking to have the aircraft removed when say new ownership has come about , the fact that NMUSAF can’t even have the decency to correspond with said land owner / group museum . Under British Law can the land owner etc simply remove them himself , and forward costs to the owner / or give permission for another museum to take the obstruction from his land ?? . If it was anyone or anything else they would not have a leg to stand on in a uk court. Secondly these aircraft were donated to museums simply on TAX reasons , it was not properly thought out , and Uk Law has got a lot more complicated since the 1980s .
If you bought a house and the previous owner left his car in your garage to simply rot for 10 years , and you had contacted them , with no reply, asked them to move it with no reply , as the new owner from a previous owner /tenant , by law you can claim it or dispose of it ,after reasonable time… I’ve never heard such absolute Rubbish as what all this fuss on ITAR. .. rubbish !! …the law is simple “ your property/scrap / rubbish is on my land and you have a duty to move it , if you don’t I will set a date , and if it is not moved by that date I will move it , or go do with it as I please and take ownership of it/ gift it to whom ever I see fit “, surely it is as simple as that

Way back in late 1978 I lead team to RAF Sculthorpe to dismantle the Mirage 1VA and a T33 for the IWM Duxford. Apparently all those from the French Air Force went to RAF Sculthorpe. We had no facilities apart from what we brought with us and were not allowed to leave our aircraft .

Trenchard Brat

Dunno if its of any relevance – or help – but there was a Mystere being assembled for display at the Zadorozhny Museum in Moscow when I visited in 2009….

I have no further details….

Ken

We would be very happy for you to have the F100! Unfortunatley the NMUSAF will not talk to us (we have had no contact since early 2008) despite many atempts on our part. Having spent a lot of money on the restoration of our Fieseler Fi103R-4 Reichenberg & now investing a lot of money building a new display hall the museum is let down by the F100 & Mystere which do not belong to us & reflect very badly on the NMUSAF!

Easy answer to getting thee NMUSAF to remove them. Warn them that due to financial constraints it has become necessary to either dispose of them as scrap or levy parking charges on them. I think that might encourage them to do something, it certainly works for getting hire cars collected from company car parks.

While I worked Sundays at Duxford the Mystere was one of the Aircraft I helped restore. Can remember masking and setting out the Squadron markings on one visit.
“8-MT if memory serves….
I Have a photo of the Press Day with the French Air Attaché as VIP guest. Will post on site if anyone is interested.

It was indeed 8-MT

Was Duxford Mystere – Now Pima

Richard, the Duxford Mystere is now apparently at the Pima Air and Space museum in the US.

Rob

It hadn’t been re-assembled by Jan this year when I visited Pima
https://www.flickr.com/photos/elaref/11996851453/in/set-72157639860486936

For interest, this album shows most of those that arrived at Sculthorpe in the 70’s…
https://www.flickr.com/photos/elaref/sets/72157632249447254/

rgds

Good luck with that! The USAFM through various processes lent these aircraft out to various preservation groups in good faith . Subsequently some groups have failed and are left with loans they cannot fullfill. I think what needs to happen is for a greater dialogue with the USAFM and some means of resolving the various issues to be decided on.
As it stands there are more Mysteres in this country than there needs to be .

The Andrewsfield one is still alive and kicking just. Took these on Wednesday when I was after some shots of my Scirocco

Great photo brewerybod. Totally agree about Bentwaters being a very worthy resting place, should it be possible.

Personally I’d love to see it on public display at Wethersfield somehow, but as the Police are still there in force (no pun Intended) that has even less chance of happening !

Rob