DC-3 passenger project Help Please

I could not agree with you more Moggy!

I think the mistake many make when they envision an operation is the potential of making money, when in reality the vast majority of operations, make very little if any real profit.

The correct way to look at any operation, and this is usually only learned the hard way, is as a means of asset aquisition, and cash flow, which can be used for other things.

An established operation will hopefully be able to pay for a number of assets, and the nature of the operation will determine just how valuable the assets are, but this translates into wealth accumulation in the long term.
The cash flow can also be useful, as it can allow outside investment via finace, based on the cashflow.
But cashflow will only come after the setup, and initial operation phases, and as a result it may never reach this point.

Even if you make it through the negative revenue phases, you are probably still a long way from the positive cashflow scenario required to support the description above.

Most operators run pretty close to a break even point, if they are lucky, so there is just not enough room for large profit in small operations, and of course as the value and complexity of the equipment goes up, so do the potential risks.

So, in my opinion if you cannot afford to self fund the start up and initial operational expenses you are not going to get off the ground, let alone survive the initial set up phase.

and yes, as much as I love old airplanes, this is a subject near and dear my heart!

It all has such a familiar ring to it.

http://www.ruudleeuw.com/scoastaws.htm

I personally would think long and hard before ever putting a penny into a similar venture. As they say there’s only one way to make a small fortune out of running an airline, and that’s to start with a large fortune.

Moggy

Ther is a sighteeeing configured DC-3 for sale in the US for only $225,000.
What’s that, about 140,000 pounds?
It’s as legal for the type of flying you envision as any DC-3 out there, of course the EU wopuld have some special requirements, but buying it already done is cheaper than restoring one.
http://courtesyaircraft.com/Current%20Inventory/N1944H%20Douglas%20DC-3.htm

To be honest I am not sure,

I am only basing my thoughts on standard JAA/ CAA regs.
No doubt there may be some room for exemption.

I was merely trying to suggest that there are many considerations beyond the obvious when it comes to starting up an operation.

In the case of the mentioned Dutch Dakota flight, it would be interesting to see which OC they operate under, as both KLM and Martinair are shown in the branding, I would assume that one or the other is also providing support.
This is very different from a stand alone operation.

LIke I said, I am certainly not trying to suggest it cannot be done, and I would not discourage anyone from trying. I was just pointing out that there are a substantial list of issues which must be resolved in todays commercial world before the first revenue flight leaves the ground.

The aircraft must meet all criteria, in terms of pax carrying certification, you will need a certified locking cockpit door, TCAS, FDR, CVR, etc.
(is there even a certified door available for a DC3?)

Are you sure about that, canadair?
If I remember rightly, re the 2008 (?) petition to keep the Dakota flying for pax use in the UK, the CAA subsequently stated that they had received no operator’s request for exemption and that they would see no reason to refuse it by nature of the aircraft’s age.
Read into that what you will…

Out of curiosity, what is the going rate rate for pleasure flights – in the UK and mainland Europe – these days?

A Dragon Rapide flight, with 5 other passengers, by Classic Flights is £39.00 – at last count.

Out of curiosity, what is the going rate rate for pleasure flights – in the UK and mainland Europe – these days?

Around £40.00 for a 10-15minutes flight. Depends on aircraft, operator, duration etc, If you want a 70-minute Dragon Rapide flight over London, it will cost you £199.00, which is still not bad for what you get.

here is a link for the trips that are being made with the Dutch Dakota… (prices speak for themselves i guess 🙂 ) Click

I think that most people would only see a beautiful historic DC3 parked on the grass, but not appreciate the huge expense in cash and hours it took to get it there, and as a result may not be willing to pay what the tickets prices would have to be to make it a viable operation.

Out of curiosity, what is the going rate rate for pleasure flights – in the UK and mainland Europe – these days?

Maybe you should try contacting these guys for more info? http://www.dutchdakota.nl/

Would leasing an aircraft be an easier option ?

Isn’t the Classic Flight Devon operating with another company from Goodwood for the summer ? Maybe something similar could be done with a Dak.

It is always admirable to see someone trying to start an operation which they would also enjoy being a part of, but as one who has started up a 3 aircraft JAR operation from scratch, I can offer a few comments,

although as they say free advice is worth what you paid for it 🙂

Number 1, even though it would seem the easy and desirable route would be investor finance, or equity shares, this will invariably lead to failure, so every effort should be made to self fund the key areas of any operation and thereby retain full control.

The main issues would be the EASA (JAR/CAA) compliance of the operation, as 1 DC3 will still be seen as an “airline” and all facets must be in full compliance.
The aircraft must meet all criteria, in terms of pax carrying certification, you will need a certified locking cockpit door, TCAS, FDR, CVR, etc.
(is there even a certified door available for a DC3?)
You will need an AOC and an AMO, (or 3rd party manitenance agreement in place)
You will need all postholders nominated, with contracts in place, or if you choose to try and use an existing AOC, it will need the aircraft to be included in their OPs spec, and you will need an agreement in place.

If you go the new AOC route, bank on and have finance in place to allow for about a year minimum to work through the process.

Also keep in mind you cannot hold a JAR AOC with only 1 aircraft, unless you can show redundancy is already contracted.

You will need to write Parts A,B,C,D, a maintenance manual, an SEP manual, you will need a Safety and monitoring program, you will need flight and ground crew, you will need a “suitable” facility, then there are small items like ground equipment, uniforms, safety cards, Ticketing system, training procedures, etc. etc. etc.
Will you write your operation as VFR or IFR? your route manual must reflect this.
Do not forget insurance, hull, and liability, as even if you choose to operate the aircraft on a sporadic basis, you will need to hold full insurance. It will be very hard to find an agreement which allows nominated days, and reverts to ground in between.
You will have fuel, landing fees, etc, in terms of operational expense,

Unfortunately aviation in Europe is no longer simple, and commercial passenger carrying ops is highly regulated.
It makes little difference between 1 DC3 and 5 747`s, other than how fast the operation burns through money.

Based on my experiences, if you started with 200,000 pounds, and subtract the cost of a DC3 from that, I would think you would run out of money about 2 weeks into the 1+ year process towards gaining operating permission.

It is just not as simple as “getting an aircraft and starting to fly pax to airshows”, not as a commercial operator.

Now saying all this, there may be a way to potentially do this as a privately owned aircraft, which you choose to take friends in to airshows, at your expense in every way, but I would think this would get old pretty fast.

Last, self finance, (did I mention this)

I mean none of the above to be in any way critical. I love vintage aircraft, and no doubt there would be many enthusiasts who would like such an operation.
But, I think that most people would only see a beautiful historic DC3 parked on the grass, but not appreciate the huge expense in cash and hours it took to get it there, and as a result may not be willing to pay what the tickets prices would have to be to make it a viable operation.