De Havilland or de Havilland?

“James reminds me of a little mystery of no consequence;- I wonder if anyone knows how, or why, the DH engines came to be named ‘Gipsy’, rather than the more standard ‘Gypsy’….? Perhaps the spelling was less settled back in those days? One for James there I think…!”

I was reffering to the above.

No, Gypsy is NOT correct spelling for the engine. Gipsy (with a capital G) is the only correct spelling.

Gipsy and gypsy are both as correct as gaol and jail are, and both spellings are found in the dictionary.

At least no-one says that the alternative name for the engine is anything but a mistake.

Now we have that sorted, could we indulge in a “correct spelling of Gipsy” campaign?

G’day 😉

The last I heard Olivia was still attending the Moth meets at Woburn. What a great family.

Indeed they were and Olivia was 98 yesterday.

JDK

Not quite ! There remains the astonishing talents of the de Havilland family. Irrespective of the styling of the prefix, the de Havillands were a remarkable breed.

The two sisters, Olivia and Joan had a long and decorative career in Hollywood as actresses. ‘Eye candy’ they were – most definitely. Joan has since died but, now in her nineties, Olivia continues to grace us with her presence.

But, as most of us with aviation in our blood acknowledge, it is the imperishable Mosquito that captures the imagination perhaps, for all time. The combined talents, imagination and drive of R.E. Bishop, the de Havillands and Wilfred Freeman gave this nation and the world, the most beautiful and potent war machine of the period.

For sure, they were a remarkable family.

Yes, I’m very well aware of that!

Hart’s was effectively obsolete when I bought mine many years ago. Never found any need for the updated, combined OUP offering, professionally speaking.

However the question was if the context of your use of ‘de’ was for French use (which seems reasonable) or British (Oxford) English, in which case I’d dispute the usage: ‘de’ rarely if ever being dropped in such a way by those whose name it is. But it wouldn’t be the first time OUP offered optimistic prescriptive ‘guidance’. But I think we’ve lost our audience.

Regards,

The Oxford Style Manual is much more extensive than Hart’s Rules which it effectively replaces. The reason is that the world has moved on from specialist typesetters, to the authors in effect doing it themselves on their own computers.

“The Oxford Style Manual” – including the former “Hart’s Rules”? I can’t find the reference you’ve used in my (now old) Hart’s but I’m wondering if that’s for setting French, not an Anglicised name, given Harts has a large chunk on French setting. While I was looking… Butcher’s “Copy Editing” refers to Anglicised ‘de’ and lower case, except at the beginning of a sentence (which, by implication she thinks is OK.)

Using ‘de’ in all cases does seem odd from a French perspective, I suspect.

Ultimately, when dealing with a specific person’s name, their preference over-rides all other guides. So it may apply to those Havillands, but Sir Geoffrey apparently was happy to be a de Havilland, and we should respect that.

As to mistakes and pedantry; if you like. Hardly more so than the minutiae discussed of control grips or Spitfire wing details, and positively a light passing-over compared to a good roundel argument, with the police called in.

The original question was a reasonable one, and there’s plenty of confusion about it, but no real case – except habit, ignorance and copying, as this discussion has shown – for ‘De’. Does it matter? In print, good to get right, surely.

Regards,

I happened to have in my hands a copy of “The Oxford Style Manual”. On a whim I looked up the usage of “de”. One aspect that has been missed above is how to refer to the chap himself by surname. Apparently the rule is if the name consists of one syllable the “de” is retained otherwise it is not. Hence “de Gaulle”, but “Havilland”. If anyone wants to read up an authoritative account of “de” usage (and much more), there is probably a copy of the book in your local library.

Oh I try – everyone’s patience, or so my dear old mum delights in telling anyone who’ll listen.

Mike,

You’ve taken it with good humour and that is good enough !

Alright so I dropped a clanger when I should have known better. I blame the fact that I was rushing as it was nearly time to leave for work. I’ll get my coat.

Re 40

Was my face red or, to put it another weigh, was my face red !

…..or even IS English!!;)

Yes allowances have to be made for people who’s first language is not English

…or even whose first language is not English! 😉

Crikey ! I thought I was a pedant.

What’s pedantic about asking for correct English? Yes allowances have to be made for people who’s first language is not English but there’s no excuse for poor language skills among those who are raised in that language. I blame the decline in educational standards and laziness.

Complicating what is relatively simple requires talent as well as expertise!