Deactivated Guns

Just in the news today, a live rocket round in a museums collection. Someone is in trouble!!

Cumberland, Maryland – History could have come to life in very much the wrong way at a veterans’ museum where a rocket on display for two years was discovered to be live.

After Allegany County authorities were notified Wednesday that the Mark 1 rocket on display in Cumberland might be live, the state fire marshal’s office and the FBI confirmed it was. Bomb experts removed the ordnance and rendered it safe.

The 122-centimetre-by-7-centimetre rocket was similar to those used on helicopter gun ships during the Vietnam War, said Deputy State Fire Marshal Joseph Zurolo Jr. A local veteran donated it to the museum, which is in a chapter of the Vietnam Veterans of America, Zurolo said.

Authorities are investigating how the man came to possess the live ordnance. – Sapa-AP

There is now a No 10 Petition (courtesy of Historic Military Vehicle Forum)

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/reenactment/

If you possessed anything live which went off and caused mayhem/casualties I think the courts would throw the key away !

A branch of Tesco’s in Pompey used a live 6in naval shell as a door stop for at least 15 years until some matelot spotted it was a live round when he was doing a spot of shopping one afternoon. They evacuated Tesco’s, the Inland Revenue office next door & part of the hospital across the road…:cool:

Ah to be in the land of the free! (and kevlar!) :p

TT

They were coming out of Australia 🙂

Interested in the whole de-act/replica/blank firing thing and was thinking how it affects bombs, missiles and rockets and how are they de-activated? Are all those on display in museums training and inert or are some de-activated?

At least one of the 2 missiles hanging on the Duxford EE Lightning still has the proximity fuse in it…. or at least it did the last time I looked at it…

As far as I know I am sure someone else can advise, bombs, rockets etc don’t require a deactivation certificate !

However I wouldnt like to be someone discovered with a live anything.

Because it is common practice if the Police “discover” as happened recently when a public spirited visitor to someones house spotted a rocket of some sort and reported it, poor rocket owner was arrested, half the town evacuated, collector branded a nutter in all the press and said item taken away by eod despite of the fact it said Drill Practice on it which was barely reported later.

If you possessed anything live which went off and caused mayhem/casualties I think the courts would throw the key away !

These are fine provided they are FFE – Free From Explosives…should be marked as such (and should be confirmed as being so by someone sensible/expert). Note, thinking museums will also check their ejection seats are ‘FFE’ and deactivate the baro release etc….the BTRU (Barometric Time Release Unit) ensures seat seperation as soon as the aircraft descends below 10000ft (or whatever the capsule is set to). It has no explosive but has a huge spring and bolt that extends very very quickly.

Back on deact guns, my MP is writing to the Minister to find out what is going on….

Interested in the whole de-act/replica/blank firing thing and was thinking how it affects bombs, missiles and rockets and how are they de-activated? Are all those on display in museums training and inert or are some de-activated?

As far as I know I am sure someone else can advise, bombs, rockets etc don’t require a deactivation certificate !

However I wouldnt like to be someone discovered with a live anything.

Because it is common practice if the Police “discover” as happened recently when a public spirited visitor to someones house spotted a rocket of some sort and reported it, poor rocket owner was arrested, half the town evacuated, collector branded a nutter in all the press and said item taken away by eod despite of the fact it said Drill Practice on it which was barely reported later.

If you possessed anything live which went off and caused mayhem/casualties I think the courts would throw the key away !

But wouldnt deactivated mean that the explosive was still inside but safe? Where as inert would mean empty? Just thinking aloud.

Dean

Interested in the whole de-act/replica/blank firing thing and was thinking how it affects bombs, missiles and rockets and how are they de-activated? Are all those on display in museums training and inert or are some de-activated?

How other countries handle this.

Travelling through Asia in 2002, one Military Museum in Vietnam would let you blast away with an AK47 for a dollar a round.

In neighbouring Cambodia another museum, displaying a wonderful collection of recovered AFV’s, had their small arms display under an open sided structure. Rifles and LMG’s were in racks that you could bring down and examine, no security chains…no security people.

A different world.

Mark

“However, as any ban would potentially affect collectors including museums, the government will first consult with enthusiasts.
Ms Smith said the government would seek to balance protection for the public with the rights of responsible collectors.

Don’t hold your breath Nick!

In view of the interest that this thread has generated, here is a link to The Home Office website where you may download a copy of Firearms Law Guidance to the Police 2002. I must stress that this is not the Firearms Act itself, that along with its amendments is a truly dreadful document, The Guidance is at least written in recognisable English!

For more general guidance on firearms and the law, the best source is probably BASC website. A good one to bookmark as it does provide up to date links to the Home Office website.

Nick alluded to the EOD aspects of recovery operations. This is another area that can be a minefield 😉 , not least because of the “turf wars” between some of the agencies involved.

Good luck, stay safe and avoid prosecution in 2008!
exmpa

Hi Exmpa

By necessity & through experience 🙁 I have acquired a fairly basic working knowledge of the firearms laws relating to what we occasionally find – This has led to a good working relationship with the local police Firearms Licensing Department.

But as you say “the police themselves are not very good on firearms law” and the incident I mentioned occurred when the officer I normally deal with was on long term sick leave. A junior officer, obviously with a different interpretation of the law and absolutely no idea what a Hispano Mk1 was, took it upon themselves to do things “by the book” and certainly succeeded in getting me (and my wife!) seriously worried! This individual decided that a section 5 firearm was just that and there was no provision for it to be otherwise – In order to try to prevent the immediate confiscation and destruction of a particularly fine (if rather bent) pair of Hispanos, I arranged for them to be delivered to a gunsmith with section 5 clearance to be deactivated – It was this action that led to the threat of arrest. At this point it appears that a senior officer intervened and the situation was held in abeyance until the return of the officer I normally dealt with – as the other officer admitted, my usual contact was the only one who knew what I was talking about! On his return the guns were inspected and all declared to have ceased to be firearms in any case, making the deactivation completely unnecessary. I received a full official apology and the junior officer concerned was moved to a different department.

With regard to your suggestion of giving advance warning of an excavation likely to recover weapons – We did just this for our Time Team project – The aforementioned police department were more than happy with this and in light of my previous relationship with them, they did not feel it necessary to even send an officer to observe (which I think disappointed my contact, who would have loved to attend!). We also were obliged to have representatives of EOD on site and we also asked them for written assurance that any weapons found would be retained by us on the understanding that they would be inspected and if necessary passed to a to a gunsmith with section 5 clearance to be deactivated – this proved to be more problematical 🙁 EOD agreed to this, but with conditions – that they checked and cleared the guns as free of ammunition first (fair enough) and that they would prefer to transport them straight to the aforesaid gunsmith for compulsary deactivation – effectively taking the police out of the equation and ignoring the relevant section of the firearms laws that you quote (not so fair!).

As EOD’s presence was obligatory due to the film production company’s rules, we had no choice but to accept. Whilst I have every admiration for the important and dangerous job that EOD carry out – What happened next proved very disappointing for all of us involved in the project. To cut a long story very short, The guns were clear of ammunition as none had been carried on the aircraft’s last flight – However EOD confiscated all three guns found during the filming (two still mounted in their complete turret!) and following several requests to return them as per our agreement, they were delivered, unannounced, to our museum – Each having been blown to pieces using semtex (no sign of the turret) – NO satisfactory explanation was ever given.

These examples can only serve to show what a minefield our current laws already are, when even those directly enforcing them are unclear as to their coverage and interpretation. The home office itself has stated we have the some of the strictest legislation in the world – would it be too much to hope that they will use this opportunity to sort out the mess that makes up our Firearms laws, so that they can be enforced properly, freeing up the authorities to target those actually committing these crimes, instead of spending much of their time hassling those who are abiding by the law?

One glimmer of hope might be the following quote?

“However, as any ban would potentially affect collectors including museums, the government will first consult with enthusiasts.
Ms Smith said the government would seek to balance protection for the public with the rights of responsible collectors.

Ministers hope to find a compromise that will allow genuine curators to collect legitimate firearms while giving police and enforcement agencies the power to remove black-market guns from the streets”

We shall see!

I was just saying what the Section 5 and deact chappy told me….he said that the 95 changes were mainly to do with SMGs….is that not the case?

Yes….all this kerfuffle is about SMG’s/assult rifles, and maybe pistols/revolvers, but not bolt action rifles, LMG’s, HMG’s or fixed mounted a/c weapons which weren’t affected by the 1995 change in spec.

The trouble is this is not even 1% of the problem, which they even admit, but they still want to do it to make a newsworthy splash in the media that they are perceived to be doing something for the public good, rather than actually making a real effort to tackle the other 99% of the problem which will remain…..

If politicians had brains they truely would be dangerous……..:mad:

I hate them, I really do………….:dev2:

You can still buy crates of .303’s for $350 & that gets ya 10 of em.. 🙂

Ah to be in the land of the free! (and kevlar!) :p

TT

De-activated

Used to do odd jobs for a Devon recovery team.One awful rainy day I was asked to inspect some ordinance brought up by a trawler in Plymouth harbour,after inspecting the same I concluded it was in fact probably a harpoon gun as there where a lot of whaling ships impressed during the war,it appeared to have a round in the breach!The skipper was reluctant to part with it so I left.Years later((@98)I bumped into him,:what did you do with the harpoon gun?” “Oh I cleaned it up and had it mounted on the front garden!”Also in Plymouth sound are lots of souvenirs from the falklands war,I had parts of an SLR which I did clean and all of it worked OK!Whoever bought my old house might get a suprise one day!!Also bombs ,19th century grenades,old live ammo etc etc!

When I first started collecting de acts it was to add to the uniforms/helmets I already had – in the days when a No.4 lee was £50 (£200)
TT

You can still buy crates of .303’s for $350 & that gets ya 10 of em.. 🙂

Nick you wrote:

And all that doesnt even take into account the “catch 22” position you put yourself in when finding such a weapon, as you technically have no right to touch it or move it from the crash site, let alone transport it to a section 5 certified gunsmith to work on! I know, as I was threatened with arrest after having reported a find (as we are obliged to do) to the police – As the senior officer said when he eventually put his foot down and stopped the whole silly mess – If we spend our time and efforts treating genuine law abiding citizens like this, how on earth can we hope to win public confidence and catch those who are the real threat!

This is precisely the kind of situation I had in mind when I recommended at post #7 of this thread that a working knowledge of the Home Office Guidance document is important. In the case you described the following provisions would probably apply:

2.16 Section 8 of the 1988 Act is an
evidential provision and does not preclude
the possibility that a firearm which has
been de-activated in some other manner
may also have ceased to be a firearm within
the meaning of the 1968 Act. For example,
guns held by museums that were recovered
from wrecked ships and aircraft may be
corroded to the point that they cannot be
fired. This should not be confused with
wear or missing parts that can be replaced.
The final arbiter of whether the article fulfils
the definition of a firearm at section 57(1)
is a Court.

Part of the problem is that the police themselves are not very good on firearms law!. The reaction you experienced is ample evidence of this.

I would suggest that if you are carrying out an excavation that may result in the recovery of weapons or ammunition you write to the Firearms Licensing Department of the police force responsible for the area and advise them of your activity. You may also wish to include an outline of the procedures that you will follow if you do recover any item that may be subject to the Firearms Act (this would of course include advising the police) and ask that they approve your proposals. Whatever is finally agreed, insist on it being confirmed in writing. If they are tardy in doing this then confirm it yourself, along the lines of…….. Further to the telephone conversation between myself and Firearms Enquiry Officer XXXX on [date] I understand that you agree to the following:…….

Keep a copy of all correspondence and a meticulous record of all your dealings with Firearms Department. The reason this is so important is that offences under the Firearms Act are criminal offences, just like theft and assault.

exmpa

Chaps

I have sent emails to the Justice Minister Rt Hon Jack Straw MP, who (orignally as shadow Home Sec in the 90s after Dunblane) was interested in my suggested register of deact guns.

I have also raised my head above the parapet to email the Prime Minister. This is the peoples government, apparently, so why dont you try it?

http://pm.gov.uk

the tightening up in 1995 was due in partly in consequence to the conviction of someone who had been re activating Uzi’s and selling them to anyone for £900 with ammo so the whole deactivation process was looked at again.

However since 1995 there is a greater problem with weapons from the former Eastern block, why would you want a messed about re activated gun now when you can get brand new stuff cheaper, these are the real problems with gun crime out there.

I think you are both right – in a way – pre-95 de-acts should not have been capable of chambering a round (but many could be – am thinking L/Es here) but the action could work, post 95 the action is supposed to be welded shut and incapable of movement, in either deact status the barrel and firing pin/block were machined in the same way.

However, when it comes to ‘longs’, LMGs and HMGs their circulation amongst dealers is not so great ie – they will sell 10 pistols or lee enfields to every BREN or browning, so the majority of de-act stock is pre 95 of these types of weapons – there is deffo no shortage of Brens so people dont bother to de-act them anymore, they will only pay the gunsmith plus the £50 proofing fee in Birmingham or London (plus shipping!) if they are going to make a profit on sale – ie the weapon is rare, valuable or popular.

IMHO I was worried about aircraft weapons but in practical terms I dont see them being affected, by definition in being attached to an airframe I dont think it would occur to many people, but I for one would be delighted to hear if an enterprising individual holds up a post office with a P-51 and its six .50s..!

Knock on of pre-95 to post 95 weapons can already been seen in the differing prices between the same weapon to different specs – a post M1 carbine is perhaps 300-400 quid – a pre maybe up to a grand (I have seen them at that price!!!)
Bonkers.

When I first started collecting de acts it was to add to the uniforms/helmets I already had – in the days when a No.4 lee was £50 (£200) and a Sten mk2 £65 (£350) never mind a 9milly Browing HP at £120 (£450)!

Och well!

TT

That’s not true.
The pre-95 spec deact rules included mods to prevent chambering of a round…i.e hardened pins welded across the chamber, firing pins removed and bolt end’s sawn through at 45 deg.

Post 95 spec meant addition of welded up actions and receivers etc to prevent disassembly or field strip.

I was just saying what the Section 5 and deact chappy told me….he said that the 95 changes were mainly to do with SMGs….is that not the case?