Deep aircraft excavations

Thanks for posting those xtangomike. That excavation took balls! I’d love to know how it was sold to the landowner…. 😀

I think it was Sandown local council.
It was in the early days and they had no idea (niether did we) exactly how large the operation was going to be.
Steve Vizard did all the PR, and there was certainly some rumbling in the jungle when the enormity of the exercise was fully known.
Like all good diggers, we had mostly fled the scene when the s..t hit the fan, and I think there were some latter payments made to offset the ‘clear up’.
Never in the ………..of digging has such a large hole been dug by so many loonies trying to find something that wasn’t there.

Thanks for posting those xtangomike. That excavation took balls! I’d love to know how it was sold to the landowner…. 😀

AFAIK the deepest excavation carried out in The Netherlands was one done by the RNethAF team where they got one of the Hercules engines from a Wellington from a depth of 30 ft. The engine was well stripped of its cilinders of course (at one time it was on show at our museum).
Cees

Yes, and the landowner even let us survey one and then said he didn’t want to fill in any paperwork.

Most people either use commercial two box or similar metal detectors designed primarily for mineral prospecting – most will have a depth range of up to around 20 feet for a reasonable (engine) size target. Or a Magnetometer (a la Geophys!) usually a Forster (various models and ages and due to costing several grand new, almost certainly ex MOD) – these will locate a reasonable (bomb 😮 – that’s what they were designed for!) size object at around 30 feet depth or probably deeper for an engine or multiple engines.

However even when engines have penetrated to such depth the rest of the aircraft is usually shed along the way so there will be shallower targets – such as the 20mm that led Steve to believe the rest had gone deeper!

Oh! and there are two undug WW2 crash sites within a four mile radius of where I am sitting!

Before crash sites are dug, do people use Geophysics equipment as used on Time Team?

If so, how effective is this kit and in the case of the well dig, would it show that there are in fact no big bits present.

I know of three aircraft within 7 miles of my home. These have never been dug, on two the landowners concerned will never allow excavation.

recorded crash sites in uk have already been dug….

Not all ! i know of a Hurricane that has not been dug yet !!

Steve.

I am all for the pragmatic approach, unfortunately only those with relevant skills and experience have such 20/20 foresight.

Although this sounds a sweeping statement, during the 80’s and 90’s there was a significant reduction in apprenticeships and graduate training across the engineering professions. The legacy of this is a very much reduced skills base.

Although construction and engineering firms are currently slimming down their work forces, there is still a significant skills shortage in very key areas of the professions.

Risks are far better understood and managed than before but unfortunately the engineering environments have become very tightly regulated due to the insurance industry having to make potentially huge payouts when there is a major failure of some sort. Insurance is only approved once all risks have been quantified. I certainly can’t afford to be sued by my staff or contractors and therefore have to have very comprehensive insurance backed up with detailed risk assessments and well managed work practices.

In short the ‘mamby pamby’, blame and claim culture of the UK makes it difficult for small or low funded projects to operate successfully.

Much of the specialist and technical eduction of school children is carried out by volunteer Science and Engineering Ambassadors. They have great knowledge of their field of work and offer this to schools for free. Unfortunately the recession has caused firms to reduce the amount of Pro Bono work undertaken by staff.

Today’s students do not seem to be very good at using their imagination or grasping things that took place away from a computer, games console or TV screen. They are also unable to competently assess risk due to the amount of protection they are afforded. They generally do enjoy learning about WWII especially machinery such as guns and planes, but they need stimulating input the whole time. My experience of museum trips with them is that they do not comprehend what they are looking at because it bears little or no similarity to their current worldly experiences.

My work as a consultant is in both the science and engineering fields and also in education. The over protection by legislation has deprived many of objectivity when assessing risk. Hopefully some good will com out of this recession and people will realize that to afford to get things done, a more pragmatic approach to H&S needs to be taken.

In conclusion I believe future digs should not be excessively controlled provided that those involved are experienced and can exercise good judgement. As for children learning from them, we shall have to hope that through the schools system DVD’s of digs are purchased and shown to the students whilst they are studying WWII.

[quote=merlin70;1642853]That’s seems a very gung ho approach. There is nothing macho about being crushed in a collapsed excavation. Health and safety is about the application of safe practice. Whilst it can slow progress down and add to costs the precautions are there to avert a catastrophe.
QUOTE]

Gung ho!!! I think not…Rock climbing, bungy jumping, pot holing, Spanish bull fighting, digging holes in the ground ….all have a risk factor….some more than others.
On average nearly all aircraft digs are between 10 and 20ft…but occasionaly up to 40ft. No one dives down a deep hole without safety in mind, but if you waited for risk assessment and all the usual health and safety overkill, then nothing would happen and these aircraft recoveries would never take place purely on extra cost and time.

‘it is a shame that most if not all of the recorded crash sites have already been dug in the UK.’

Sorry about that, but they filled in the WW1 trenches before I could get there.

Health and safety and land owners would certainly prevent your audiences from getting anywhere near a dig hole. However quite a few recoveries are well documented on a fair number of TV presentations, and there are many artifacts well presented in museums dotted all over this country.
I went to one to see the ‘Mary Rose’, and did not find that either clinical or remote….I was just glad for the opportunity to see it for myself.

Digging for ‘gold’ can be bl..dy dangerous, a bit like rock climbing!! But when there is a scent of a good dig, the adrenalin rises, and nothing is too dangerous…

Today, however, with our mamby pamby health and safety jobsworthy brigade around…

That’s seems a very gung ho approach. There is nothing macho about being crushed in a collapsed excavation. Health and safety is about the application of safe practice. Whilst it can slow progress down and add to costs the precautions are there to avert a catastrophe.

The country wouldn’t be in as much debt if it didn’t have to comply with the many levels of legislation, and many goods would be much cheaper, however, I would rather not have uncertified electricians re-wiring my house or migrant workers constructing things any old how!

Back on thread, it is a shame that most if not all of the recorded crash sites have already been dug in the UK. Some current day well documented digs would be very educational for Key Stage 2 children. They do the history of world war 2 and visit an a/c museum but it is all a bit clinical and remote.

Are there health and safety restrictions placed on such digs to govern the max depth, width or other dimensions.

These days in the construction industry we are not allowed to dig below 1.2m without trench support, unless you are in open ground and the trench can be made wide enough to have ramped sides. And even then there will be Method Staements, Risk Assessments, Temporary Works Design, Permit to Dig before you can start !

[Are there health and safety restrictions placed on such digs to govern the max depth, width or other dimensions. I guess the ground conditions in Kent being clay, chalk or Thanet sand and gravel provide a stable strata within which to dig, but those shots with the 2 diggers together make me wonder whether such a depth is permitted today without shoring the sides.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think I can remember a dig where we seriously ‘shored up the sides’.(only if your dig was on telly in the middle of London)
Digging for ‘gold’ can be bl..dy dangerous, a bit like rock climbing!! But when there is a scent of a good dig, the adrenalin rises, and nothing is too dangerous.
I look back today and realise that 40ft down the hole, on a ramped in digger bucket, with water seeping through the clay walls and the sides visably moving in (Kowsloski & Buckner)…well, a tad squeaky…but that’s what it was all about. The rewards were always worth it.
Today, however, with our mamby pamby health and safety jobsworthy brigade around…well…I’m glad I’ve done my digs..not many left over here anyways. No one was ever killed, hurt or whatever, but to be PC I must warn newcomers that digging wartime aircraft must be lawfull, and treated with the utmost care for the safety of all concerned, especially when finding big old heavy 500 pounders.

The well dig to 60 feet below ground level is pretty impressive.

Are there health and safety restrictions placed on such digs to govern the max depth, width or other dimensions. I guess the ground conditions in Kent being clay, chalk or Thanet sand and gravel provide a stable strata within which to dig, but those shots with the 2 diggers together make me wonder whether such a depth is permitted today without shoring the sides.

Steve Vizrard excavated a very deep 109 on the Isle of Wight –

Here are some pics of the Isle of Wight ‘109’ dig with Steve Vizard, Andy S, myself and others. The 109 had hit plumb centre, an old well and supposedly buried itself down the small 4ft shaft. We found a 20m cannon buried vertically alongside the shaft, which proved the position of the engine/fusalage…we thought!
So down we went, and over a period of about 6/7 weekends, we dug downwards and then ramped in from the side.
God knows what it finally cost, but you can see the two machines in use, and on reaching probably near 60ft, we found….nothing..I mean nothing… except a small piece of molten aluminium, and lots of old leaves and broken tree branches….
Some you win and some you l……..!!!!!!!!

The depth to which you can excavate is usually dictated by by the size of the machine and ground conditions.

A 13 tonne machine should reach 10m/30 ft if the ground is stable. I have recently been involved with one excavation to this depth in South London, albeit not for an aircraft.

This was in the public highway and required trench sheets and associated support. The excavation had to be continuously pumped to remove water which was encountered at 4.5m. Pumping out this water was one of the biggest challenges and costs.

Steve dug such a large hole it looked as though there might be a sudden jet of water from the bottom of it followed by the Isle of wight sinking. The biggest I’ve been responsible for was a P61 in Cheshire. A very large hole for not a lot. Reminds me of a Whitley dig, Elliott!

Glacier girl is an interesting one – I suppose boring a hole in the ice is very different to digging a deep hole with an excavator…

Steve Vizrard excavated a very deep 109 on the Isle of Wight – I think a section of hillside/cliff face had to be removed to get to it. What happens when the ground is very soft and goes beyond the reach of the diggers arm? How deep can you ramp an excavator? Probably as far as the stability of the hole will allow… I’m sure Andy has some good stories and some experience on this 😀

Hi all, yes the 109 crashed into a well at a place called cowlease. Steve dug away the side of the hill to get at it. My dad saw the 109 get shot down, the pilot baled out & landed in the sea and the storey goes that when some local fishermen got to him he was alive but by the time he was bought ashore he was dead !!!!

Steve.

Glacier girl is an interesting one – I suppose boring a hole in the ice is very different to digging a deep hole with an excavator…

Steve Vizard excavated a very deep 109 on the Isle of Wight – I think a section of hillside/cliff face had to be removed to get to it. What happens when the ground is very soft and goes beyond the reach of the diggers arm? How deep can you ramp an excavator? Probably as far as the stability of the hole will allow… I’m sure Andy has some good stories and some experience on this 😀

Depth

not totally relevant

U.S. Navy F6F-5 Hellcat, BuNo 66237, c/n A-1257, ‘Z 11’,

Now in Pensacola.

Recovered 1970 – 3,400feet , 12 miles into the Pacific off San Diego!

regards

Mark