deja vu

I think there was a very old thread about this where a chap called Laurie Rimmer (his name has cropped up before, as I recall!) was said to be the Welsh representative of TIGHAR. If my recall is correct he said he would report back with further news but then went silent.

If he reads this it would be interesting to have his TIGHAR update!

Sorry, my last post was a reply to Tangmere1940 from three years ago. First time I’ve seen Rimmer on TIGHAR.

He wasn’t silent today. 11.15 2013

“Last post by Matt Rimmer
I’m afraid I’m a little late to this most interesting discussion, but I’m very pleased to see Captain Elliott here on the forum and read of his desire to see his Uncles aircraft recovered and conserved.

It is true that the project has not moved forward as quickly as some(myself included) would like, however this is in large part due to outside factors rather than any lack of effort on Tighar’s part.

In many ways it’s a catch 22 situation-before considering a recovery there must be a suitable home for the aircraft, yet it’s difficult to convince a museum to take on a complicated conservation project when they cannot see the aircraft before first carrying out a recovery.

Some will ask “So why not go ahead and recover the aircraft anyway?”, however there are a number of very good reasons for not doing this. At present the P-38 is stable in her present environment, but as soon as she is removed from that environment rapid decay will occur without proper(and costly) intervention. Now if funds were not an issue a recovery and conservation could be carried out without first having a museum on board, but to what end? in the(admittedly unlikely) event that even after conservation was completed a home still couldn’t be found what then? to place the aircraft into storage would in many ways differ little from leaving her where shy now sits under the sand.

Though this is a rather controversial statement to make, the history of historic aircraft recovery is littered with the wreckage of best intentions, recoveries carried out without better planning or enough funding for the long term care and preservation of the subject aircraft, the best known of these being the B-29 “Key Bird” but there are many others. I for one do not wish to see The Maid as a broken pile of wreckage on the beach, or a rapidly corroding hulk in some yard, or being hacked apart piecemeal for want of more time.

One comment I would make concerning the point Jeff raised about the publics desire to see a recovered aircraft verses a restored example, last month I visited the Dornier at RAFM Cosford and even on a damp October day the one aircraft at the museum which drew a small crowd during the entire time I was there was the Dornier, people are fascinated by something which has survived untouched for over 70 years and which bears not only the scares of war but details like the original paint overspray, and the controls still in the position they were left by it’s last pilot, these things speak to many people and bring home far more the human side of war than a shiny restored aircraft could ever do.

Regards,

Matt.

http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1381.msg29112.htm

Scotavia

Indeed I think you are correct, and happy to be corrected! I had totally overlooked the point you raise about its location.

However, had the aircraft been above HWM then I think my scenario would probably apply.

One nil to Scotavia! 😮

This is what I have read…

If the wreck is between high and low water marks it is actually on Crown Estate land. This clever bit of ancient law ensures that all items washed up on a beach can be claimed by….the Crown. Also if you are walking the coast and encounter private foreshore you can move onto the exposed beach and carry on below the high water mark.

Happy to be corrected !

So long as you can persuade the landowner to sign off the MOD license application, I can’t see there being a problem. Until its recovered, it’s not TIGHAR’s plane… it’s the MOD’s.

Gwynedd Council are the landowners.

Just a technical/legal point…..

richw_82 you are not quite right about the ownership issues.

The site is controlled by the UK Government through the MOD and enforcement of the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 which, as we know, requires a licence before any recovery takes place. However, the MOD do not own it and never have. It was once the property of the USAAF but the present day USAF have confirmed in writing (I have the letter buried in a file) to various parties that aircraft lost before a specific date in either 1962 or 1963, when a fire destroyed all pertinent records, are no longer claimed as the property of the USAF (or USAAF). I suppose this might mean that it has been reduced into the possesion of the landowner on whose land it lies. That doesn’t mean one can go in and recover it without a licence, but it does mean that it is not MOD property. In correspodence I had from the USAF they were dismissive, too, of the MOD’s claim that they are administering ownership/stewardship issues of USAAF/USAF as agents of the US. A bit of a minefield….but the MOD certainly do not seem to “own” it.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2964619/WW2-fighter-plane-to-be-restored-from-watery-grave.html

The Sun must be bored as well.

:rolleyes:

I’ve got enough on… let somebody else play!

I think that if you have to deal with the local council, armed to the teeth with risk assessments and enviromental impact projections,it would be better to leave it to someone else with deep pockets……

So, when are we off to wales then mate? :diablo:

So long as you can persuade the landowner to sign off the MOD license application, I can’t see there being a problem. Until its recovered, it’s not TIGHAR’s plane… it’s the MOD’s.

Gwynedd Council are the landowners.

I didn’t mean so much with location, but in this scenerio where there is a wreck lying in water (or land come to that) with a group claiming interest, what is to stop another group from turning up and recovering it? Are there legal issues etc?

Kind of funny though, given you and I were discussing this last night.

I feel like I’m being watched… 😮

wondered how long it would be until you reared your ugly head you dirty northerner! :p :diablo:

Try 52 50′ 57.48 N, 4 07′ 20.17″W for a rough guess.

A Freedom of Information request regarding it would yield the grid reference TIGHAR gave in their application.

‘We call her the Maid of Harlech after the magnificent 13th century Welsh castle, but until she is can be rescued from the sands of time, her actual location must remain confidential”

Knowing where it is, would be a start; has a license been granted?

What is to stop anyone from recovering it?

Exactly!

There are plenty with the know-how. 😉

Rather begs the question as to why if the IWM is interested -why don’t they assemble a team of skilled volunteers and just recover it!!!

I think there was a very old thread about this where a chap called Laurie Rimmer (his name has cropped up before, as I recall!) was said to be the Welsh representative of TIGHAR. If my recall is correct he said he would report back with further news but then went silent.

If he reads this it would be interesting to have his TIGHAR update!

TIGHAR are the only non-profit organisation of their kind in the world and work tirelessly retrieving plane wrecks of historical importance and donate them to museums for the public to enjoy.

Cracks me up everytime:D What recoveries? :p