Derby and R-Darter

That is a bit odd. 20 BVR AAMs is a very small stock even for their small SHAR fleet. Maybe they were confused and got the Derby buy mixed up with maybe a Popeye buy to replace the Sea Eagles? Also, firing the missile in LOBL mode seems to indicate that they either haven’t upgraded the FCS to support the midcourse datalink or aren’t going to do so.

The Indian navy signed a $25 million contract in 2005 with the missile’s maker, Rafael, for procurement of 20 Derby missiles to replace aging Sea Eagle missiles

huh.. replace an anti ship missile with an air to air missile? :confused:

I wasn’t doubting that India had the Derby, just voicing my irritation that nobody seems to be taking the proper photos 😀 Israel on the other hand, I don’t know if they’ve actually found a use for it or not given their AMRAAM stock.

Indian Sea Harrier Tests BVR Missile
By vivek raghuvanshi
Published: 16 Apr 11:09 EDT (07:09 GMT) Print | Email

NEW DELHI – Operating in the Indian Ocean off the coast of Goa last week, an Indian navy Sea Harrier test-fired a Derby beyond-visual-range (BVR) missile.

It was the Navy’s first live test of the Israeli-made Derby, a senior service official said April 15, and two more live tests are planned in the near future.

Indian navy sources said the missile hit its target on the high seas from a distance of 20 kilometers at a speed of Mach 1.2 and was able to lock onto the target before launch.

The Indian navy signed a $25 million contract in 2005 with the missile’s maker, Rafael, for procurement of 20 Derby missiles to replace aging Sea Eagle missiles bought from BAE Systems in the early 1980s.

Meanwhile, India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics is upgrading the Navy’s 15 Sea Harrier jump jets, purchased from BAE in 1983, under a $115 million contract. The upgraded aircraft will be armed with the Derby BVR missile.

The Sea Harriers were set to be retired along with the aircraft carrier INS Viraat in 2010, the Navy official said, but this upgrade will keep the planes in service for deployment on the planned Air Defense Ship.

Indian Sea Harrier Tests BVR Missile – Defense News
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3480072&c=ASI&s=AIR

In theory. No evidence of actual carriage by the SHAR yet, and no evidence of an operational F-16 user either.

I thought it had been announced that Derby had been test-fired from an IN SHAR.

When will India field Derby on the SHAR? Are there any images available of Indian Derbys yet?

Sean, for all we know, they are already fielded on a few of the fleet while the rest are being upgraded. HAL has begun work on the upgrade per reports earlier this year. Images – give it a year or two. The Navy’s SHar fleet doesnt get much press/ pictime, bar airshows. Next year, there is the bi-annual AeroIndia airshow, details of the upgrade including pics, might be on display there. The upgrade & order have been long confirmed, including by the CoNavStaff.

In theory. No evidence of actual carriage by the SHAR yet, and no evidence of an operational F-16 user either.

So, are the only aircraft that are confirmed as having had a Derby on the rail are the F-16, the F-5, and the Sea Harrier, correct?

Logan Hartke

The picture above is a CGI – the missiles i mean
I’ve seen a picture of a gripen with a practice Python 4/5 on its wingtip rail, but none with Derby.

The Grippen is qual’d for Derby, PIV and Spice. I believe it is on the table for anyone who doesn’t wish to buy US or EU weapons package with the Grip.

Will they be grabbing AMRAAMs or something similar to use while T-Darter completes development?

I have no idea. Perhaps they will keep some R-Darters available, but not spend much, if anything on maintenance/upgrades? Certainly the original intention was to equip Gripen with the R-Darter in the interim, and a certain amount of work was done on making the systems compatible.

I do see that the Defence Materiel Disposal division of Armscor are advertising 21 Cheetah C’s at Eurosatory 2008 and the sale includes “Darter beyond visual range missiles”. So perhaps AMRAAM would be an interim choice as well? Who knows…. the SAAF have always been secretive.

I have no idea either of the timescale we are talking of re the new Denel BVRAAM.

Over at the saaf forum is a guy called Boertjie who apparentely worked at Denel on AAM’s until the late 90’s. He might have a clearer idea of this missiles development path. He posted in the below thread…

http://saairforce.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=642

When will India field Derby on the SHAR? Are there any images available of Indian Derbys yet?

4. If nobody is acquiring or using either weapon, are they both dead projects (apart from the SPYDER SAM variant of Derby, obviously)?

India has purchased the Derby for the Sea Harrier as Swerve said, and is also likely to purchase it for the LCA first block (48 aircraft) as USS noted – because of the fact that the Elta 2032 and variants are going to be the radar of choice for at least the first 28, and Israel is cooperating with India on a variety of indepth projects.
For the long term, India has its own Astra (AMRAAM C/ RVV-AE eqvt) in devpt.

The Brazilians have at least acquired some Derbys and Pythons for their F-5EMs, although I cannot confirm if they are just training rounds or not. I imagine they have live rounds.

http://www.forum.clickgratis.com.br/clubedof5/t-72-previous.html

Logan Hartke

Will they be grabbing AMRAAMs or something similar to use while T-Darter completes development?

Ok, South Africa used the V4 R-Darter on the Cheetah-C before that aircraft was retired.

3. Is South Africa going to integrate V4 with the Gripen, or are they still planning to pursue a new BVR weapon along with the A-Darter for WVR combat? JDW reported a while back that Denel was working on a new BVR AAM for Gripen which would be based in part on the Umkhonto SAM, but I don’t recall hearing anything else on that project.

Sean

The R-Darter was retired with the Cheetah C and D. There has always been a programme to replace the R-Darter with a new indigenous BVR missile. This missile has been known by a couple of designations, and speculation has been whether it will be “conventional” or ram-jet powered. It is currently known as the T-Darter.

The R-Darter was originally envisaged to equip the Gripen in the interim, but that appears to have been dropped. I read somewhere that integration with the Gripen/R-Darter had been carried out, but I’m unsure of that at this moment.

Certainly there there appears to be 2 simultaneous air-to-air missile projects at Kentron/Denel. The WVR A-Darter is slated to equip the Gripen, although the Iris-T will be used until it is operational. Brazil has been brought into this programme. The BVR missile (T-Darter) appears to be a more exotic, secretive beast, particularly regarding configuration.

Certainly Denel has stated that South Africa is very competitive technologically in the field of AAM’s in global terms, and they do not want to lose that….

Below is the link to the other thread on South African AAM’s a while back here on the subject. A news snippet also to follow on…

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66397

Diehl Continues IRIS-T Export Success

(Source: Diehl BGT Defence; dated May 28, web-posted June 3, 2008)

ÜBERLINGEN, Germany — The IRIS-T short range air-to-air missile (SRAAM) of Diehl BGT Defence, a subsidiary of Diehl Defence, was selected by the South African Air Force (SAAF) to equip their Gripen fighter aircraft.

The IRIS-T was chosen to arm the SAAF Gripen as an interim solution until the local missile development – the A Darter – will be operational.

The South African Acquisition Organization Armscor placed a contract order for the procurement of IRIS-T in the second half of May 2008. In the course of 2009, the IRIS-T missile will be fully operational with the Gripens of the South African Air Force. South Africa is the second export customer for the European missile. Austria selected the IRIS-T missile at the end of 2005 with full deliveries in 2007.

India has bought Derby, for its Sea Harriers, upgraded with Elta EL/M-2032 radar. Contract signed 2005, & some missiles have certainly been delivered. There have been test firings from SHARs this year.

I believe this should answer question number 3. However i am not sure if it’s a reliable news source.

http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/business/2008/0804141038.asp?A=BUS&S=Business&T=News&O=ST

“The missile is known as the T Darter and is being designed to replace the R Darter (Radar Darter) currently in service with the SA Air Force (SAAF), where it is known as the V4. Cabinet, in 2003, decided to retire the V4 when the Cheetah fighter jet was withdrawn from service as the missile contained Israeli technology and required continued assistance from that country to remain operational.

Denel Dynamics CEO Jan Wessels says the T Darter will join their A Darter, currently under joint development with Brazil, under the wings of the Gripen, which has just started entering service with the SAAF. Last month SAAF started phasing out the Cheetah and the V4.
“

Ok, South Africa used the V4 R-Darter on the Cheetah-C before that aircraft was retired. So here are some questions:

1. Who uses the Derby or R-Darter? Chile and Brazil have been mentioned as potential Derby users in the past, have either of them actually acquired the missile? One of them actually had modifications done to support the missile; I think it was Chile but I can’t remember off the top of my head.

2. Has Israel ever acquired the Derby? I recall an IAF officer or Rafael official, one of the two, claiming at one time that it would be used on the F-16.

3. Is South Africa going to integrate V4 with the Gripen, or are they still planning to pursue a new BVR weapon along with the A-Darter for WVR combat? JDW reported a while back that Denel was working on a new BVR AAM for Gripen which would be based in part on the Umkhonto SAM, but I don’t recall hearing anything else on that project.

4. If nobody is acquiring or using either weapon, are they both dead projects (apart from the SPYDER SAM variant of Derby, obviously)?

I think a potentially strong candidate for the Derby AAM is the IN with its Shar upgrade, which includes the EL-2032. THe early versions of the LCA also might carry it. Unless of course, the Astra comes along ASAP. JMT.

Regards,
USS>