Description of Heathrow

Moondance
I agree, no more will be said…

Getting more like pprune round here.

Originally posted by Whiskey Delta

Letting an autopilot fly you 10 hours to a landing in a country where to turn around depart back to where you came is hardly a great measuring stick for a country and it’s operation.

Oh dear WD you have shown you true maturity now boy.

Firstly I didn’t start flying the 747. I have many a number of hours flying the turbo props, the same as you. You now are hinting that flying the widebody around the world is childsplay. This confirms you have no understanding of aviation or infact what goes on out side of the US. If, and I now doubt, you ever make it into the majors you might have some experience to back up your quite poor arguements.
Wake up and smell the coffee. Your lack of intelligence is quite outstanding.

Also, Yes, 5 years in ATC and it has been in both enroute and TMA.

For you information my posts have been edited for spelling. Is that OK.

I am now bored trying to converse with a typical yank, if you want to carry on with this send a private message, lets not clog this messege board up with your drivel.

Never said that and your previous comments were added after my response anyway.

I like this comment the best:

And you don’t know anything about ATC in Europe as you haven’t flown here.

Never said anything about the ATC controllers in Europe. I was just shedding some light on the operations in the US. You seem to take my comments as bashing European operations but again, I never addressed that issue.

Why did I go through all the effort of posting websites and other facts?:

Trust a yank to dissagree with the facts

Someone questioned facts so I did what I could to verify them. Try it sometime.

Hey I just throw some kudos out there for the professionals that have gotten me through emergencies, weather and countless other memorable situations and since they don’t measure up to some invisible standard you’ve done nothing but to attempt to #$%@ all over it. Letting an autopilot fly you 10 hours to a landing in a country where to turn around depart back to where you came is hardly a great measuring stick for a country and it’s operation.

5 years in ATC? Terminal or Enroute?

I won’t re-edit my post either.

I obviously hit the nail on the head then, didn’t I.

Factless point/counterpoint. I guess I’ll have to break out my knee pads to bow to the Pilot God.

Originally posted by Whiskey Delta

Last thing I want to see is this turn into a “my **** is bigger than your **** argument?”

Last I check O’Hare is the busiest airport in the world (or at least trades that title with Atlanta frequently).

I bet none of you knew that the busiest enroute airspace in the world is in Cleveland Ohio.

Heck I provided an example of a small airport operation that exceeds that of the busiest airports in the world and you weren’t impressed. NYC had a higher concentration of large airports but that wasn’t exceptable either.

I AGREE so why do you keep posting how busy everything is over there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And for some info for you as you haven’t botherd to look it up, yes Ohio is the busiest airspace in the world and yes I did know that, Ohio airspace handles some 11,000 movements in a day within 70,000 square miles of airspace. Where as London move 6,000 flights in in a tiny fraction of the size. I will leave it up to you to find out…

I find it very shallow that you have such a strong one sided opion of ATC when you don’t have much experience of ATC worlwide. Amercia, Canada and Mexico is not my idea of an extensive experience.
No one has said that US controllers are bad. I find them very good, but I stand by my opion with is backed by the fact that I have worked in ATC and I have flown around the world commercially and I have experienced worldwide ATC. Just because a piece of airspace is busier than another doesn’t mean the controllers are better.

WD you wrote….

Canada and Mexico are my other experiences.

Not excatly extensive expereince now is it.

you wrote….

I’m glad you liked my link but did you read it?

Yes I did

you wrote…

More operations than Chicago O’Hare per day and all that with out radar?

I feel some praise should go out to the pilots not just ATC.

you wrote….

Communicating with controllers via wing wags? That’s not an impressive operation?

Not really.

you wrote…..

Shutdown the radar at Heathrow and see what its like.

Why, then let’s then shut down Atlanta and see what happens there.

you wrote…..

So this whole point began with me sharing that I felt there are some darn good controllers here in the US.

No one was saying anything bad or negative about US controllers.

you wrote…..

The European community probably doesn’t know about the complexity of their operations.

And you don’t know anything about ATC in Europe as you haven’t flown here.

you wrote…..

Heck I provided an example of a small airport operation that exceeds that of the busiest airports in the world and you weren’t impressed.

Sorry, was I supposed to jump with joy and sing your national antham.

you wrote…..

NYC had a higher concentration of large airports but that wasn’t exceptable either.

Sorry I must of missed something here. When did I say it was not exceptable.

you wrote……

Did I mention that the US controllers emptied the skies on 9/11/01 in a matter of hours? I talked to a Cleveland Center controller supervisor about that operation and……we’ll it wouldn’t matter as you aren’t impressed.

You seem to be feeling a little dejected don’t you.

Canada and Mexico are my other experiences. Canada provides a straight forward enroute experience and terminal ops are an easy transition. The ATC folks are pleasant to deal with and are accomidating when they can be. They don’t have geography or other landmarks that affect either operation which it makes it easier than other areas. Mexico on the other hand is a nightmare in my opinion. Very basic enroute radar capabilities mixed with bad weather, nasty terrain and limited precision approaches makes the whole experience straining. Also nonstandard ICAO/FAA terminology makes for an interesting experience.

So there are my experiences, I’m sure you have some too but I don’t care to hear about them as it really isn’t important. Next thing that happens is everyone wants to start comparing flight time and crap like that. Last thing I want to see is this turn into a “my **** is bigger than your **** argument?”

I’m glad you liked my link but did you read it? More operations than Chicago O’Hare per day and all that with out radar? Last I check O’Hare is the busiest airport in the world (or at least trades that title with Atlanta frequently). Communicating with controllers via wing wags? That’s not an impressive operation? Shutdown the radar at Heathrow and see what its like.

So this whole point began with me sharing that I felt there are some darn good controllers here in the US and that the European community probably doesn’t know about the complexity of their operations. I’ve never read or heard that the London group is the “universally known best of the best.” Until there is a official declaration then its a matter of opinion.

It seems that you don’t care to allow my opinion to share the same company with yours. I bet none of you knew that the busiest enroute airspace in the world is in Cleveland Ohio. You didn’t want to hear that as you took offense to my interjection into the conversation. Since I wasn’t jumping on the “London is the best” bandwagon I was wrong. Heck I provided an example of a small airport operation that exceeds that of the busiest airports in the world and you weren’t impressed. NYC had a higher concentration of large airports but that wasn’t exceptable either. Did I mention that the US controllers emptied the skies on 9/11/01 in a matter of hours? I talked to a Cleveland Center controller supervisor about that operation and……we’ll it wouldn’t matter as you aren’t impressed.

Thank you so much for sending me that information WD.

I have studied the arrival procedures on the web site and now you have me worried that you think that is a complex arrival situation. Following train lines and roads at certain heights is not my idea of a complex arrival situation.

A question for you….

Have you flown commercially outside of the US, let’s say Asia or Europe?
Also, what experience of other countries ATC do you have.

I look forward to your reply.

Originally posted by skycruiser
Would an airfield implement complex arrival situations for the vast amount of aircraft flying in, being piloted by non professional aviators.

Yes they would. The FAA issues special arrival procedures special for the event. Rather than randomly questioning everything that I say just look into it. Research never killed anyone as far as I know.

Here, I even found the information for this years event that just wrapped up. Now all you have to do is read it.

AirVenture 2003

Originally posted by Whiskey Delta
Spend a day flying in and out of the NYC area especially when weather hits and I’m sure you’d be impressed as well. Heck just watch the operations from the terminal in LGA and it makes your palms sweat.

No doubt I would. But I am not saying that I am unimpressed with US controllers.

It makes my palms sweat when I see controllers giving aircraft landing clearences on cross runways. This practice is not allowed in the UK. In my mind, an accident waiting to happen.

WD you wrote.

They go there because of their familiarity with complex arrival situations. They are good in my opinion.

I have to disagree with your comment on COMPLEX ARRIVAL situations. Would an airfield implement complex arrival situations for the vast amount of aircraft flying in, being piloted by non professional aviators. I feel it would just be a busy day rather than complex arrival situation.

If you want a busy day and a complex arrival situation then Silverstone is for you. I am told it has more aircraft movements on race day than Heathrow.

Originally posted by skycruiser
Well I am quite sure of the truth in my posting as I was fortunate enough to work in the London TMA ATC unit for nearly 5 years.

Again, I seemed to have missed the results of the International Controller Competitions. Don’t write off the capabilities of the US controllers because they are….well from the US. Spend a day flying in and out of the NYC area especially when weather hits and I’m sure you’d be impressed as well. Heck just watch the operations from the terminal in LGA and it makes your palms sweat.

Actually they are brought in because of their ability to handle the work. Wisconsin is a big state and has plenty of local controllers why do you think they go to another state for assistance? If it was all about free tickets then any controller would be given the slot. They go there because of their familiarity with complex arrival situations. They are good in my opinion. If you have an experience otherwise please share.

WD you wrote…..

Hey they even import Chicago controllers to Oshkosh every year just to hand the on-slaught of traffic each year during the big airshow. They must be good too.

This sort of thing happens everywhere. It is usually done free by the controllers as they have an interest in the days events. I have many a friend who works in the London TMA who do the ATC on the day of the British Grand Prix. free tickets YOU SEE.

This does not mean they are good just because they do a different days work……..:o

Well I am quite sure of the truth in my posting as I was fortunate enough to work in the London TMA ATC unit for nearly 5 years.

We had many Americans over from all over the states and let me tell you they were impressed and shocked on how busy the London TMA was.

I have also done a fair bit of flying Stateside and I will stick to my comments on the Brit controllers being the best.:D

Im feeling very sleepy

Originally posted by kurmitz28
Trust a yank to dissagree with the facts. Then again everything in the States has to be bigger and better :p (so they think)

Show me the facts then. Cleveland Center is the busiest airspace in the world. I know you might find it hard to believe that things are bigger in the US and yes, even better at times. Since you have a habit of quoting undocumented “facts” then why don’t you show references for once.

Leave it to a Brit to worry about a Yank bringing their opinion/experiences to a conversation. :rolleyes:

If you read the previous posts you Brits are the only ones self-proclaiming their ATC to be the best in the world. You label it a universal “fact” that they are so. No where did this Yank make the same proclaimation about the domestic controllers here. I only questioned the stated “fact” and acknowledged that there are some darn good controllers here who operate in some unique environments.

Hey they even import Chicago controllers to Oshkosh every year just to hand the on-slaught of traffic each year during the big airshow. They must be good too.

Trust a yank to dissagree with the facts. Then again everything in the States has to be bigger and better :p (so they think)

World’s busiest enroute airspace belongs to the local boys here in Cleveland, Ohio of all places. They get all the trans-con traffic as well as the routes between Chicago and NYC. In addition to being sandwiched between Chicago and NYC airports (and Toronto too) they also have Detroit, Pittsburgh and of course Cleveland within their airspace. I’ve toured their facility and it’s quite impressive. Check out their website if you don’t believe me.

Cleveland Center ZOB

As for arrival controllers the 4 big New York airports of Tetaboro, Newark, LaGuardia, and JFK are literally within a stone throws of each other. Draw a 15km (9 mile) circle from downtown Manhattan and you’ll incompass all these airports and several more. Go out to 60 miles and you can throw Philidelphia plus a dozen other airports in there too. It’s busy and the do a great job.

It is widely regarded as the most challenging airspace in the world and is universally accepted that the Heathrow controllers are the best of the best.

Best of the best? I’ve never seen that in writing or talked to any pilots that have touted them as such. Nothing against them but you seem awfully sure. I think the ability of some of the controllers here to handle not only traffic but weather ranging from blizzards to hurricanes speaks well of their ability. These guys can see the temperatures vary 100 degrees F in the course of 6 months and the weather varies as much.