Desert Air Force Survivors

The ‘white truck’ looks like a 1950s Bedford RL.

The Fury is Iraqi isn’t it? (And one of those that mysteriously ‘disappeared’ after 2003)

The Hawker Fury is definitely not to be found in the “Libyan Desert”… The other relics I have all visited through the years – in fact, the fotos are actually mine (I have posted them in various fora in the internet from where the maker of this “video” copied them). Excempttions are the White truck in the Gilf Kebir and the Daimlers on the foot of the Jebel Nafusah… I am not even sure about the Daimlers since I had visited them as well one day.

The title of the video is misleading – it is definitely not the case that Libya is one big open WW2 museum – the distances between the individual wrecks count hundrets of kilometers. And: Neither the Daimler cars nor the Sherman are WW2 relics. The latter came from a postwar shooting range and the Daimlers are stored next to a military baracks.

The Ford belonged to the Sudan Defence Force and the Stuart Tank was most probably the one which the SAS wanted to drive to Benghazi (but already failed at Hauaari). The replica of the Lancia and the Fiat were used in the movie “Omar Mukhtar – Lion of the Desert” and the Chevrolet belonged to the Free French. It was abandoned in spring 1942 (if I recall correctly). The Blenheim is an Mk IV which was force landed by the South Africans. At last: The Italian tank-turrets. They are gone. Years ago these Italian wrecks went to the steel factory in Misurata.

Kind regards, Kuno – www.desertstories.org

Lots of Tanks and AFVs, but at about the 5:58 mark there is a Blenheim and at least one Fury…
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/news/a20374/the-libyan-desert-is-one-big-world-war-ii-museum/

Photographs of inside P40 show no package of the Desert Survival Equipment
that were equipped all the planes in North Africa………
probably it was taken off by Copping to survive!

Some photos of the P40 Copping where you can see the inside of the wreck and the fuel tank !

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I’d be very careful about assuming a direction of travel for Copping based off a known track. To my chagrin, I made that very mistake on here a few years ago helping Mark 12 with eyewitness accounts of the Spitfire that forced landed on a cricket pitch and which my ex father in law witnessed as a young boy. My FIL’s story fit perfectly with the photos Mark had to show, except the aircraft appeared to have traveled 180 degrees in the opposite direction to what my FIL described. It didn’t add up and I wasted a lot of my own and Mark’s time trying to reconcile the two points, eventually chalking the disparity up to faulty memory after over 40 years. It never entered my head at any point that the reason it didn’t add up was because I’d assumed based on the fact the aircraft was flying south it had approached the old OXO cricket ground from the north. The second we found another eyewitness account that said it had circled several times before landing, it all fell into place.

Ok that was more of a tangent than I intended but the point remains, there’s no real evidence for what way Copping might have gone. We’ve no real idea how he flew around or how changes of direction he made inbetween where he disappeared over the desert and where his aircraft was eventually found. He could easily have walked south thinking he was heading north.

This is what I wrote at the time. More I think about it in the years sonce, the more I think he had suffered a breakdown of sorts.

HISTORY
In late 1941, the new P-40E ‘Warhawk’ began rolling off the production lines in Buffalo, NY. The P40E-1-CU was manufactured for both the US Army and to also fill British contracts through 1941 and well into 1942. It was fitted with a V1710-39 Allison engine and six M2 0.50” Browning machine guns. The US Army received 2320 examples and the British government ordered 1500. As the British ordered examples had different radios etc, it was slightly different and so it was designated as Model 87A-4. The British named this model the ‘Kittyhawk IA’.
This Kittyhawk was manufactured in early 1942 and was supplied with the ship number 1035, Curtiss construction number 19761 and US serial 41-35928. The requisition order number was 322 under contract DA-3 and its unit price to the US government was around $40,561.04. As a lend-lease ordered aircraft destined for the RAF it was probably completed without radio or battery. The Kittyhawk IA was painted in the RAF colours of Dark Earth, Dark Green on the upper surfaces and Sky Type S Grey on the underside, a white spinner and to finish the job off, Type A1 roundels to the fuselage, Type A to the under wing and the Type B to the upper wings were added. Finally it was marked up as ET574 in an usual location and text size and was then ready for issue overseas.
On the 15 March 1942, the British Purchasing Commission took ET574 on charge and she was loaded onto the SS Mormac Swan in New York along with other Kittyhawk’s and assorted war supplies. This convoy was heading to North Africa and as going through the Mediterranean was out of the question, the convoy traveled around the tip of South Africa and up the Red Sea to Suez, Egypt. The convoy arrived towards the end of May 1942.
In Egypt, the airframes were probably trucked in there shipping containers to 107 Maintenance Unit (MU) and it was here that ET574 was assembled and prepared for RAF operations in North Africa. The Dark Green was repainted in Middle Stone with just the serial area left showing the original green. The spinner was also painted Desert Hawk Red to avoid any confusion with the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica Italiana aircraft that carried white spinners. At 107MU at British radio/battery was added and the radio hatch on ET574 was modified with a stronger catch/lock. This modification was carried out as a number of P40’s had been lost due to the hatch opening during violent flying maneuvers. A simple stenciled warned was also added to warn of the modification. Later, Curtiss introduced a sturdier double latch lock.
By the beginning of June 1942, ET574 was issued to 260 Sqn RAF as a replacement aircraft. On 2 June 260 Sqn were based at Bir el Baheira Landing Ground 140 (LG.140) in Libya and on arrival ET574 was issued to A Flight and marked up as HS-B.
LOSS
Throughout June 1942, ET574 was flying operations during this hectic period of the North African campaign when the Allied Forces were in retreat. As of the 15 June they began to carry a single general purpose 500Ib bomb below the fuselage. The loses for 260 Sqn between end of May to the end of June, consisted of nine pilots killed, missing or wounded and probably over twice as many Kittyhawk’s lost or damaged. In the same period, 260 Sqn had retreated to four different LG’s, moving from Libya into Egypt and on 27 June they were based 30 miles East of El Daba (LG.106).
On the early morning of 28 June, ET574 is believed to have been flown on a reconnaissance mission to ascertain the advance of the Africa Corps. The group encountered light and accurate anti aircraft fire and three Kittyhawk’s were hit (One Cat 1 and two Cat 2) before ET574 landed back at LG.09 due to the Afrika Corp advance,. It seems ET574 had suffered a large caliber round through the rear fuselage and had also suffered other damage that rendered the undercarriage non retractable.
By lunchtime it seems the front was still active and it was decided to fly the two Kittyhawk’s that had suffered Cat 2 damage – ET245 and ET574 back to LG.100, to where 53 Repair and Salvage Unit (53RSU) were located. The two pilots tasked with flying these damaged aircraft back and picking up replacements were F/Sgt L Sheppard in ET245 and F/Sgt D Copping in ET574. By Sheppard’s own account, ET245 had suffered damage to the wings and the leading edges had been filled with sand and pasted over with canvas. ET574 damage meant the Copping had to fly with the undercarriage of ET574 locked down. (It was unable to lock down following retraction).
By mid afternoon the pair took off for the 40 minute flight to LG.100. As the more experienced pilot in theatre, Copping had the lead. They took off and the heading should have been 110deg (South East) but Copping led them off on 240deg (South West). Sheppard followed assuming that Copping would then head south and then east to be on the correct course but after a while he began to get nervous and broke radio silence but got no reply. Sheppard flew alongside and tried to indicate to Copping an easterly heading and tried a number of ways including pointing to his compass, watch and the sun. After 35 minutes Sheppard assumed Copping would understand they were not at LG.100 and were off course but no, Copping maintained his course. Sheppard now had to make a decision, knowing he was right. He flew up close, waggled his wings and pointed eastwards and flew off expecting Copping to follow. Sheppard returned and tried again but to no avail so he decided he had to leave. By checking the time and the sun and keeping the sun behind and to the right he knew he was flying east. Eventually, Sheppard noticed the Qattara Depression on his right and headed north before going heading east again. Upon reaching the River Nile, Sheppard followed the road north of Cairo until he saw and landed at LG.100. Flight time had been one hour fifty minutes.
Sheppard was debriefed at 53RSU and his story was recorded in his memoirs 45 years later. As it was late, he stayed the night. The next day, Sheppard flew a replacement Kittyhawk to LG.85 as 260Sqn had retreated from LG.09 on the evening of 28 June. As for Kittyhawk ET245, on 1 July it was categorized as Cat E (write off) but was eventually repaired in 1943 and brought back into service.
What happened to Copping can only be surmised from where ET574 was found. At some stage he changed to a south easterly and then southerly course. After flying for up to three hours, his fuel was running short it looks as though he partially retracted the undercarriage, lowered the flaps slightly before ET574 hit the rocky escarpment removing one wheel. ET574 skidded along the rocky surface before coming down hard on its nose, removing the propeller with reduction gear, radiators and bottom of the Allison engine on what must have been a pretty hard landing. After exiting the cockpit, Copping seems to have taken the clock and then removed the IFF from the cockpit and destroyed it; before the standard practice of closing the cockpit canopy. The radio and battery were removed from the rear fuselage, in what must have been a vane attempt to try and communicate with anyone. That night as the temperature dropped, he took his parachute and wrapped himself up and sheltered under the raised port wing. How long he stayed and whether he left the area is still unknown but he likely perished within 72 hours somewhere in the Al Wadi Al Jadid desert. F/Sgt Dennis C H Copping has been classed as missing ever since and is memorialized on the El Alamein Memorial.

Malcolm: A long story, dealt with over several threads. …

Thanks for that Laurence – I hadn’t been following the later developments after the aircraft had been identified.

Matt, Yew’d be correct I am indeed referring to the rumo(yew)rs that were posted on this and another forum regarding the possible movement of the P40. Hopefully one day it will be displayed as a testament to Sgt. Copping and his comrades, in whichever country it is ultimately destined for.

Malcolm: A long story, dealt with over several threads. Briefly, the Italian team found some human bones about 8km from the wreck site. I arranged with our local forensic scientists to analyse these bones (DNA and histology), but we were never able to recover them. The MoD said at one stage that they had been examined in Cairo and found “unsuitable” for analysis. There was also mention of a “second set” of bones. Both these assertions seem rather doubtful, and now everything seems to have disappeared. I don’t know where these bones are now, and I don’t know anyone who knows. Still shrouded in mystery.

Without wishing to appear totally befuddled I thought that human remains were found near the P40 – or did I imagine that.

TallyHo!, I presume you are referring, at least in part, to the rumo(u)r* spread on this forum by a certain person who — um, rumor has it — has been banned from the same forum, at least for a while longer.

It’s a waiting game for those of us who, in the dark and suspicious of vague rumors, do sincerely hope that this amazing relic makes it safely to more secure surroundings. (The issue of the recovery of poor Sgt Copping’s remains is a separate hope.)

*Sorry…being from the Yew.S.A. and specifically Maryland (the state, not the aircraft), I chews to yews my yews sparingly.

I believe the Maryland remains as found for now. As for Sgt Copping’s P40 it appears it’s location is on a need to know basis. Rumours suggest that it has left Egypt.

4. From what has been learned from the testimony Copping was a “hothead” and seems to have
been instructed to bring the plane to LG100 and never to return in the squadron!
This is one reason then the hardness and great risks they run in those days may have led Copping
to a “voluntary fate”.

dko

This is a revelation! We have all wondered long about why Sgt Copping flew his last flight as he did, and we are disinclined to speculate openly here, but may I please ask the source of your ‘testimony’, who said that Sgt Copping was a ‘hothead’ and more particularly that he was instructed ‘never to return to the squadron’?

If he broke an aeroplane I can well imagine him getting an admonishment, of the ‘get lost and don’t come back’ variety. I am sure you do not mean that he was actually formally ordered to fly away and ‘never to return to the squadron’? That might have been said, but certainly not meant literally and he would surely have known that.

‘Harsh discipline’ and harsh words are surely familiar to all in military service and no reason for a suicidal aerial frolic in a fit of bad temper. Going AWOL for a few days and getting laid and drunk would perhaps be a social norm.

His ‘atypical behaviour’ suggests that Sgt Copping may indeed have been in poor health due to the ‘hardness and great risk’ you rightly mention. Are you suggesting that his companion, (the ‘gregarious’ one you mention, Stocky?) may have actually been detailed by his squadron as a chaperone with a brief to ‘keep an eye’ on him?

Phil

If anyone has a real need to know where the remains of Dennis Copping are may I suggest that there is one ‘unscientific’ method of finding anything you need to. That method is dowsing, which does not rely on logic – indeed the application of what we think we ‘know’ to the process almost guarantees its’ failure. It requires a cleared mind, simple trust and an instrument (rods, twig, pendulum) that can give simple answers to simple questions. I can explain so far as I understand it how to work the system, but lacking the need to know I would not volunteer to do it because my experience tells me that in all probability I would find myself on a ‘wild goose chase’. However when I have had a need to know something it can often be startlingly accurate.

I apologise to any scoffer who is offended that I mention something so lacking in scientific approval, but for the ‘right’ person I assure you it can work.

Is there any further news yet on the situation regarding the current location of Sgt Coppings P40 and the situation regarding the ex- Free French Martin Maryland remains found in “Africa”

Copping was supposed to fly for 140 miles to go from LG09 to LG100, but he was found out of gas
250 miles from the starting point! This means that he would take off with about 1/4 of the
tank which is unlikely for the avionic procedures.
So it is clear that to run out of fuel he had covered many more miles in a different direction!

dko

Can I ask what fuel load and speed calculations you are working with here for your range. I would suggest Copping didn’t go with a full load, but certainly a full main tanks – this would give him double the range required to get to LG100 (and logical why waste the fuel if you don’t need to). I’ve added a chart for you on Fuel stats but please note this is cruise not in the configuration that the aircraft was in (i.e wheels down and locked, max speed therefor limited to 175mph max (and likely to have been flying at a lower speed than that probably around the 140mph mark).

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As for the drift there are a quite a few to take into account but there variations could be quite large.

Buz

The key point of this research is to determine the position where Copping thought he was landed!
He flew for over two hours without reference points, only desert, so his assessment of landing position
on the map was based only on the compass, the clock and the speed !

Please some veteran pilot or expert can tell me how accurately these calculations on the map could
be real or the error could be very large? Thanks

Buz, these are the pic of the undercarriage !