Desert Fury wrecks ! (Photo)

I’d be pleased to stop the politics but you wanted to expel the UK. Surely you wouldn’t expect the UK to sit back and take that sort of flak from a country which seems to have abandoned it’s defensive capability and has to rely on others to do the job. Stones and glasshouses spring to mind. And I believe the UK is one of the most reliable payers in to the UN funds. Anybody got the figures for Iraq?

Ozplane,

It doesn’t come down to who is going to defend NZ. That is not the argument at all. You are talking about a slim hyperthetical situation of NZ being invaded. What has that to do with anything?? Absolutely nothing.

I am talking about a reality that has occurred. Countries like Nigeria and Fiji have been expelled in the past from the British Commonwealth for much less atrocities. Countries can be expelled from the UN too. Before the first Gulf War the USA had not paid its UN subs for ten years. It paid all its back dues in one lump to get the UN on side in 1990. Funnily enough once the war was over they stopped paying again, till just around September 2001. Most other countries pay their’s when asked. You cannot have UN missions without money and you should not be able to pick and choose when you want to pay, and when you want to listen to the majority. The whole spirit of the United Nations is to achieve peace through uniting nations. Not by doing what you want if it suits you and no-one else. I just see it as one law for most countries and another law for the select few who think they rule the roost politically.

As Steve Patterson has said though, talking politics is very boring. let’s get back to aircraft.

This is getting better. I see Dave Homewood wants the US and the UK to be expelled from the UN. And just who is going to defend NZ when push comes to shove in that area. You can’t defend yourselves as you’ve binned your Air Force and I’m sure the Ozzies won’t have a lot of spare capacity to look after you. Good luck in that case!
By the way has anybody got any shots taken in the Baghdad Air and Space Museum. I hear there is a beautifully rebuilt Sea Fury there just waiting for some 130 Avgas for it’s Centaurus and then srp can fly it away. I wish.

One look at Mr Dibbs’ photo of that beautiful FB.10 and I know what side I’m on in that debate! Unless it’s the last one left…fly it.

Absolutely right Steve – enough said!

2 In the Iran/Iraq War at least on Furys was used to spray Chenical Weapons, hence they where consider secendary targets.
But since the intelligence didn’t even know what a Fury was, they very likely didn’t know that those planes had been used for that!

These planes were Swiss built Pilatus PC-7 and PC-9 Turbo-Trainers retrofitted in country with hardpoints to carry and drop ordnance.

Martin

Has anyone noticed that the two biggest recoverys of warbirds have come out of the mid-east? The Furies from Iraq, and the Yak-11s from Egypt. I guess it is about time to visit that other country in the region supposedly filled with derelict warbirds stored in the desert. I remember we discussed that on the old WW forum back in time. Guess it is about time to slaugther the piggie bank, put on my panama hat, and be on my way. 😎

T J

Boyyyy what an interesting thread!

Wondered whether someone was going to mention the Baghdad museum incident…Anything that got “looted” from that place would have to be considered “lucky” now, since somebody so comprehensively trashed the artifacts stored at that museum–it was vandalism, not looting, that made the headlines there.

I think that, at least for the near term, any Fury “spirited away” to the West is likely more secure than one remaining in Iraq. Yes, the climate there may be Arizona-like and hence good for preservation of old alloy airframes…but though the climate may be stable, the country ain’t. One may hope that that will eventually change, and yeah, if so there certainly ought to be a Fury in an Iraqi museum (seeing as, what, 75% of the survivors are ex-IAF)–or maybe even flying in Iraq (cf. the Royal Jordanian Historic Flight with its scrumptious-looking early jets). But…not yet.

The comment about “Baghdad Furies” being restored in the West and then lost in crashes raises the old “fly them or ground them” debate. True, several ex-Iraqi Furies have been lost in crashes. Would the Fury population actually be better off had the Jurist-Tallichet recovery not happened? I doubt it…and in any case, that recovery was a transaction, not a retrieval stemming from military operations. One look at Mr Dibbs’ photo of that beautiful FB.10 and I know what side I’m on in that debate! Unless it’s the last one left…fly it. (Provided of course you know what you’re doing.)

That’s my $C0.02…

Cheers

S.

You can buy Colman’s Mustard from Norwich, but you can’t buy a bottle of Spitfire Ale.

Hi Steve,

I ask my local Budwieser and Miller reps. the same question after you rave about it. Well they told me that the company that makes it doesn’t have a US only version and that you could order a Six Pack but anything over that you will have to pay some sort of Taxs on it.

So does anyone mail a Crazymainer a bottle just let me know howmuch I’m dying to try it plus it would be a nice Bottle for the Stores Collection 😀

Cheers
RER

I miss Hitler (and so does Prince Harry, it would seem). Things were so black and white in 1939…Allies were good and Axis was bad. Wasn’t that easy? Why did it have to get so complicated? And why did Frank Whittle have to invent the jet. It just mucks up the works for would be warbird pilots. And why is it that just when you get going a speed camera pops up out of nowhere? Why is that? And while we’re at it why can’t you buy Shepherd Neame in America? You can buy Colman’s Mustard from Norwich, but you can’t buy a bottle of Spitfire Ale.

Leave the politics for GD, and let’s get back to warbirds.

So what you’re saying is, let’s all be friends…. 😉 I don’t mind that at all. It would of course be pretty boring if everyone agreed about everything. (Unless you all agree with me, that is.) 😀 😀 No, even that would be boring in the end, I guess. :confused: Nice to have a debate over important things. I am still surprised of how docile people are on this forum. I ventured over to the modern military aviation site here on key publishing once, and holy smoke, what a place. Insults flew, remarks regarding certain individuals pedigree, beatings with wet towels, heading off someone at the pass, etc. You felt as though someone was ready to thump your nose as soon as you stuck it in there. After 20 min. I came back here to peaceful and enlightened people and never looked back! So if I am ever to ridicule your Fury’s powerplant in the future (and I will) ;), remember it is not of ill spirit, just tongue in cheek (or foot in mouth… or something) 😀

T J

I miss Hitler (and so does Prince Harry, it would seem). Things were so black and white in 1939…Allies were good and Axis was bad. Wasn’t that easy? Why did it have to get so complicated? And why did Frank Whittle have to invent the jet. It just mucks up the works for would be warbird pilots. And why is it that just when you get going a speed camera pops up out of nowhere? Why is that? And while we’re at it why can’t you buy Shepherd Neame in America? You can buy Colman’s Mustard from Norwich, but you can’t buy a bottle of Spitfire Ale.

Leave the politics for GD, and let’s get back to warbirds.

Well said T.J.

True, maybe Iraqis don’t value those planes now, but the average person in the west (UK, USA, NZ, Australia, Europe…) didn’t value their country’s aircraft either for several decades after WWII. No-one cared they were disappearing at a huge rate in the 1950’s and 1960’s. Now we do, and eventually the Iraqis probably will begin to care about their aviation heritage too. But it will be too late if the planes have all been nicked!

The war was started because Saddam didn’t comply with the UN. Maybe so. But if you remember the facts, those who started it, the US and UK, also were going strictly against the UN’s wishes. Kofi Annan has publicly stated many times it is an illegal war. I hold that much more offensive to the United Nations as what Saddam was doing because many tens of thousands have lost their lives needlessly. I feel for that grave mistake the USA and UK should be expelled from the United Nations. It wouldn’t matter a jot to the UN anyway without the USA – they never pay their bills unless they want to start a war.

I guess the numero uno question here is this. What were we trying to liberate in the first place?

The Iraqi people from a dictator. (Can we really attack a country if we don’t like their leader?)
The world from WMD. (Of which they’ve found how many did you say?)
The Iraqis of their oil. (Nice to have control over a good percentage of the worlds oil reserves!)
The Iraqi teenage girls. (We have all heard of forced marriages which we all think suck. Let’s “liberate” a planeload of them back to Europe or the US where we can use them as au-pairs or playthings for 1$ a month. More than they would earn at home, and they would be “free”!)

Do the Iraqis give a c**p about the Furies today? 99,9999% doesn’t, but that is not really the point. We came in to their country and keep taking what we want! That is not compatible with being a liberator, thats a conqueror! We have taken control of their oil, and their country. Now some Iraqi will ask, “why did those crazy a**holes wanna take those old wrecks with them”? Then they will find out, that in gringo country these “wrecks” are worth a bundle of cash. And still you expect the Iraqis to believe us when we’re saying we are there to help them, instead of robbing them blind? it is just another thing to add to their fury at us westerners.

Here to answer Rob (aka crazymainer)

Ok Folks,

A few thing need to be put into this thread about the Furys that randy and his fellow pilots destroyed.

1 Before the US Military goes off to War they go over any UNESCO Files so when they are planning Bombing Raids that they don’t hit anything of Cultural.
Fair enough. A Fury is not commonly accepted as being a cultural object. I don’t like it, but since it was a war, and most guys (unlike Randy) didn’t have a clue what it was. I can see why they blasted it. You make those decisions in a split-second while flying overhead.

2 In the Iran/Iraq War at least on Furys was used to spray Chenical Weapons, hence they where consider secendary targets.
But since the intelligence didn’t even know what a Fury was, they very likely didn’t know that those planes had been used for that!

3 The War was started because Sadama didn’t abide UN Resulutions end of agrument folks.
And as a great incentive, we could get their oil, and secondly Mr. Bush could finish what his father unfortunately didn’t! I mean, why haven’t you invaded North Korea? They should have nukes pretty soon!

4 for the Record in 1996 a plot to kill former President George H. Bush, under UN Charter this is an Act of War should have been dealt with right then and there.
The CIA tried several times to kill Castro, does that mean that you Americans morally have should gotten your a**es kicked for doing the same?

5 So what they where liberated them, we aren’t talking about 4-6 Century artifacts.
Is it of importance how old or how valuable it is? I was tought by my parents that it is wrong to take what doesn’t belong to me!
RER

T J (thumbing frantically through the WW directory, looking for something to liberate) :dev2:

Ok Folks,

A few thing need to be put into this thread about the Furys that randy and his fellow pilots destroyed.

1 Before the US Military goes off to War they go over any UNESCO Files so when they are planning Bombing Raids that they don’t hit anything of Cultural.

2 In the Iran/Iraq War at least on Furys was used to spray Chenical Weapons, hence they where consider secendary targets.

3 The War was started because Sadama didn’t abide UN Resulutions end of agrument folks.

4 for the Record in 1996 a plot to kill former President George H. Bush, under UN Charter this is an Act of War should have been dealt with right then and there.

5 So what they where liberated them, we aren’t talking about 4-6 Century artifacts.

RER

Stored in the desert? – How else do you expect the Iraqi military to store their historic aricraft? The whole country is virtually desert! They are on military bases and stored by the Iraqis to preserve THEIR heritage and culture. The desert environment in Iraq can be no more harmful than the storage facilities at China Lake and Davis Montham can they?

I agree with Steve and David. The Iraqi military has kept those aircraft there for a long time for a specific purpose. They are not in service, and will not be again. They must be preserving them as museum pieces – If they didn’t want to preserve them for their country they’d have scrapped them or used them as targets, or for fire drill, etc.

Those aircraft are the Iraqis’ heritage, not anyone elses. If the Government – which incidentally they haven’t had for some time – chooses to sell them on behalf of the people, fair enough. But if they have simply been stolen by the Allies of Evil, then something should be done.

The looting of aircraft (if this has occurred) is identically as shameful as the looting of priceless ancient artifacts from that museum that caused such outrage in the press when the Yanks first invaded.

Who says these aircraft are considered there as junk by the way? Just because they are in storage what makes them junk? Have you spoken with the owners and locals to find this interesting point??? I could just as easily call all the stored aircraft at Davis Montham junk becuase they look dusty and uncared for. Are they also unwanted junk? I think not.

How would you feel if a foreign power went to Cosford or Hendon or Dayton or any or your Air Force bases and took all the preserved historic aircraft saying that someone is going to get them flying but you’ll never see them again! YOUR heritage, stolen! How would YOU feel??

Ozplane – I am sorry to say this but it’s exactly the same war which we started not a new one against a new team! The ‘imported’ fighters were convieniently supplied by the hundreds of abandoned arms dumps which were
left after the coallition dismantled the Iraqi Army structure.
It’s nice to think that the ‘imported fighters’ are the cause of the insurgency but in reality there are a lot of people in Iraq who are very unhappy and whilst it would be great if the insurgency would stop – it would be far easier to plan for this eventuality in the ‘war games’ conducted at the
Pentagon before the war.

“I start explaining to the pilots and intel guys what kind of airplane it is when I see on screen that another 500-pound laser guided bomb sails right into the Fury, destroying it in a large explosion.”

As sad as that is, it is also bloody hilarious!! Can you imagine it?!!!

So to make this a bit less political -do we assume that an enterprising Flypast reader, in the employ of Her Majesty’s MOD thought – I’ll have a bit of that and nabbed it for himself (using MOD resources) OR said bod contacted higher chain of command who offered a C-130 to get it back to the UK – in other words is it now MOD property, OR the property of a unit individual (I appreciate the sentiment that it is still the property of the People of Iraq morally but you get the drift)

AND what are they going to do with it now its here?

Up for tender or a swift airframe number issued and transferred to the RAFM or FAAM or even IWM – so question – Johnathan you are IWM bod, if MOD telephoned and asked you whether you wanted a twin seat fury would you turn it down (if unfair to ask sorry!)

TT

David I’ve reviewed my opinion and I think “We won, they lost” still stands. It’s a different war now against mainly imported insurgents so the goal posts have moved. I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to do business in the Middle East but I’m not sure if there is a word for “ethics” in the Arabic business dictionary. “To the victor the spoils” still seems good to me.

the sound of silence

Having had the great late Mark Hanna come towards me flat out and fly over my head at an estimated 15-25 feet for a group of us snappers when the OFMC had their Fury a little while ago, you will never convince me that any other single piston warbird either looks as good or more importantly sounds as good as a Fury with a Centuras fitted
You know what sound those centaurus engines make,listen*………………..
……………………………………….what do you hear?nothing?why is that?
I’m guessing that it is due to the lack of spares,maybe thats why they are reengined.I am a big fan of Bristol sleeve valved engines.however the lack of spare parts means that the R-3350 conversion looks mighty tempting especially if you want to fly your plane for more than a handfull of hours a year.This past summer I was at the Camarillo airshow when I spyed a Fury with a 5 bladed prop.COOL! a Centaurus engined bird!I couldnt wait for it to fly.It took off and immediately returned and landed.didnt see 1 flyby.Why?a Centaurus problem of course.Par for the course.time 4 an R-3350. Tim

Hey guys lets chill out out a bit – lets just remind ourselves of where these aircraft really belong, regardless of whether they’re over Iraq, the US or Europe – courtesy of the OFMC and Mr John Dibbs – Stunning!

That is indeed a great picture. Interesting scheme.