Destruction of 3 Libyan Ju 86Ps & F.O. Reynolds

The MTO Spits in question were modified Spitfire Vbs that were given 4 blade props and lightened as much as possible to the point they had a single 50 cal in each wing, pointed wing tips, no radios, lightened fuel etc. Three of the Spits modified were BR114, BP985, BR234.

They apparently downed 2 Ju86P and lost one Spit in the process.

What was the “adaption” that was made to his Spitfire?

Not sure how the Spitfire in question was adapted but to counter high-flying Ju86R bombers operating over Britain in August 1942 the Special Service Flight operated out of Northolt using Spitfire IX which, according to Pilot Officer Emanuel Galitzine:

“…had been lightened in almost every possible way. A lighter wooden propeller…..all of the armour had been removed as had the four machine-guns, leaving an armament of only two 20mm Hispano cannons…..painted in a special lightweight finish…..all equipment not strictly necessary for high-altitude combat was removed.”

The aircraft was 450 pounds lighter than the standard Spitfire IX but no cabin pressurisation was fitted.

On 12th September 1942 Pilot Officer Emanuel Galitzine intercepted and damaged a Ju86R (with a single hit by a 20mm round) above the Solent at over 43,000 feet in the highest air-combat of World War Two.

From ‘Skies of Fire’ by Dr Alfred Price.

Surely these three Ju86P were not all brought-down in the same engagement?

Hmmm… According to 145 Squadron history

http://www.scribd.com/doc/23762263/History-of-RAF-Squadron-145

Early August, 1942, Idku, a rest period for the squadron, this was short lived, with continued actions, and on one period an attempt to intercept the high flying JU 86Ps, a Spitfire was stripped down, intercepted one at 40,000ft, but unfortunately the guns froze…

No doubt about it, that single (AP?) cannon shell finished the whole high-altitude bombing (and possibly reconnaissance) effort with the Ju86 over Britain, without the Luftwaffe actually losing an aircraft.

Not sure how the Spitfire in question was adapted but to counter high-flying Ju86R bombers operating over Britain in August 1942 the Special Service Flight operated out of Northolt using Spitfire IX which, according to Pilot Officer Emanuel Galitzine:

“…had been lightened in almost every possible way. A lighter wooden propeller…..all of the armour had been removed as had the four machine-guns, leaving an armament of only two 20mm Hispano cannons…..painted in a special lightweight finish…..all equipment not strictly necessary for high-altitude combat was removed.”

The aircraft was 450 pounds lighter than the standard Spitfire IX but no cabin pressurisation was fitted.

On 12th September 1942 Pilot Officer Emanuel Galitzine intercepted and damaged a Ju86R (with a single hit by a 20mm round) above the Solent at over 43,000 feet in the highest air-combat of World War Two.

From ‘Skies of Fire’ by Dr Alfred Price.

There’s a picture of the singular damage kicking about somewhere – the shell passed straight through the Junkers’ port(?) wing. Only one hit, but I think this more or less proved that the Ju86 WAS vulnerable, even at high altitude.

The first Ju86R bombing missions were flown over Britain by two aircraft on 24th August 1924 and the last Ju86R operation seems to have been the interception at 43,000 feet on 12th September 1942.

So between 26th June and 15th September 1942 there were a least seven interceptions leading to the loss of two, and the damaging of at least three, high-altitude Ju86.

I had thought that the Luftwaffe had given-up with the Ju86 very quickly over Britain but it seems the decision to stop using it was based on more widespread interception (of the relatively few operations flown).

I’d always assumed the Mediterranean operations came later in a ‘safer’ theatre.

From Spitfire Mark V Aces 1941-45 ( pages 63-66 ) :

The pilots were from 103 MU Aboukir

Two total losses

29 August 1942 : PO Georges Genders intercept a Ju86P, only a short burst fired due to guns jamming, no claims but the JU86P ditched.

http://www.dornier24.com/pages/stories/story2.html

6 September 1942 : PO Georges Genders intercept a Ju-86P damaging it, the descending Ju is then attacked by PO A. Gold, claimed as damaged but the JU-86P was lost when crash-landed; Genders ran out of fuel and bailed out over the sea and swam ashore after 21 hours in the water.

Other interceptions

24 August 1942 : FO G. Reynolds ( this one was given destroyed by some )

10 September 1942 : FO G. Reynolds

15 September 1942 : PO A. Gold

From Aces High :

Genders Georges Eric Clifford RAF 754713

26 June 1942 : 1/2 Ju86P damaged
27 June 1942 : 1/2 Ju86P damaged
6 September 1942 : 1/2 Ju86P

Pierre Closterman in “The Big Show” describes an action over Scapa Flow on 21st February, 1944. He and Ian Blair were scrambled in their “strato-Spit VIIs” to intercept what they thought would be “one of the new Junkers 86 P’s?”. They got to 43,000ft about 1000ft above their quarry that turned out to be a “Messerschmitt 109 G equipped with two fat auxilliary tanks under the wings” The three aircraft went into a high-speed dive and Blair managed a short burst and the 109 exploded.

Roger Smith.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Closterman actually wasn’t present in that engagement, despite it being in the book. :confused:

Pierre Closterman in “The Big Show” describes an action over Scapa Flow on 21st February, 1944. He and Ian Blair were scrambled in their “strato-Spit VIIs” to intercept what they thought would be “one of the new Junkers 86 P’s?”. They got to 43,000ft about 1000ft above their quarry that turned out to be a “Messerschmitt 109 G equipped with two fat auxilliary tanks under the wings” The three aircraft went into a high-speed dive and Blair managed a short burst and the 109 exploded.

Roger Smith.

What a fascinating read , Thank you 

Well you cannot get better than that to confirm what happened, Thank you Sam and a salute to your Grandad who without this input many more deaths and an elongation or war there.

TA

Hello, I am the grandson of Bert Woods. 

Bert Woods was part of a small mechanical unit based near Egypt.

When this account first became more popular on the internet it seems so many have tried to make claim to it. Some of these claims verge of the romantic ridiculous. Others are not wrong but misleading, for example that further intercepts of the JU86-P did occurre but only later after further Spitfires were modified. These modifications based on the first single Spitfire which used the first field modification of ‘Abukir’ filter 

“Abu Qir, formerly also spelled Abukir or Aboukir, is a town on the Mediterranean coast of Egypt”

Abu Qir Lat / Lon > 31.312889889538486, 30.059862087237313

The truth in fact was simple, with a single spit going up for the first time to a record altitude with no pressurised cockpit to bring down a single JU86p. This reconnaissance aircraft was known by the British mechanical unit to be responsible for the evening bombardments.

The original was a single modified Spitfire which intercepted a Single JU86-P. It just managed the altitude & speed enough to fire its 303 machine guns which damaged a single JU86-P just enough to bring it down. There after all operations of the JU86P ceased. 

As told by Grand dad to me personally shortly before he died. As part of a very small mechanical unit based near Egypt they had only one spitfire (only one aircraft available) based near Egypt. As the modified air filter was called the Abukir filter, this was an airbase near to Egypt & so its undeniable that this was where the single modified Spitfire was based.

As told. The aircraft was stripped of all unnecessary weight. Many bolts were removed. Cannons removed. 4 blade prop added. Engine modified. Modified air filter.

*It retained its original wing & was not fitted with extended wing tips.

The JU86p flew regular as clockwork during the day without any fear of allied aircraft. Its engines were heard by my Grand dad Bert & his colleges each day. At night came the bombardments due to the positions given by the JU86. This was what angered & frustrated the mechanical unit to do something & from the way he described because of their frustration they did this all off their own backs without specific orders & once they made the decision to do it was done quickly.

The brief combat report i was told, that it was day time, the Spitfire gained just enough speed although it struggled for a while to get the altitude with the JU86, it gained just enough height for time enough to get guns on just enough to damage & unbalance the JU86P to force to make a crash landing.

I believe the crew of the JU86-P survived.

When i researched this many years ago i found Luftwaffe records which back up this account.

After research some years ago i discovered that the bringing down of this first single JU86-P may have been a pivotal step in the Allies success in the desert.

I think its obvious that the JU86-P was a key to Axis success in the desert & is no coincidence that after this first Ju86-P was shot down & its operations ceased that the tables started to turn for the Allies in the desert. I think its also interesting that this has not really been brought to light although im certain this information would have been clear to both Allied & Axis intelligence.