Dicey PA474 moment. Remember this??

Landing in a crosswind in a tail dragger is much like trying to balance an upturned broom on the end of your finger. Blinking difficult with lots of correction inputs!

BR

In that North Weald vid, the windsock looks like it was blowing right across the runway (the large open end is plainly visibile on the footage), and it takes a 15 knot mean to make an ICAO windsock sit horizontally.
On a typical day, a mean of 15 knots would give gusts to 25 knots – hardly suitable for an aircraft with a 10 knot crosswind limit…

I also seem to remember in one of the BBC documentaries on the BBMF some years back, that a couple of the old veterans were surprised in the way that the pilots were landing the Lancaster.

Saying in effect, that only the very best pilots used that technique during WWII.

I seem to recall there was a thread on here a while back which mentioned that a lot of the landing problems with PA474 in the 1990s’ were caused by the Shackleton tyres that were fitted being inflated to the same PSI as when on the Shacks.

Once they reduced the tyre pressure, the problems were solved.

Cheers

Paul

To be fair I wasn’t sure about Patterson- but I’ve heard from several sources that Andy Tomalin (who came after Patterson I believe?) often had trouble with her. Pre-Patterson was Tony Banfield I think? He also went over and flew FM213 for the first post-restoration flight.

I miss Mike Chatterton flying her, that’s for sure.

I’ve got an airshows DVD somewhere that has the Mildenhall incident on.

Around that time I think there were a few incidents of the Lancaster having landing problems…there’s a Discovery Channel documentary which has an on-board sequence filmed from the mid upper turret as she was landing and did the same thing, and a subsequent sequence of her going up on jacks and being inspected, and the undercart being sent away for work while the then new OC BBMF (Rick Groombridge) subtly(!) mentions to someone that he’d been told by the powers that be that the BBMF had a priority when it comes to getting things hurried along through official channels. The guy replies something on the lines of yeah, you, the Red Arrows, and everyone else mate!

In the same programme Sqdn Ldr Groombridge says that the Lanc had been off the runway a few times and that he thought that they’d been landing it wrong, and how they’d talked to some of the old boys who said that only the show offs ever tried to 3-point them and that they usually got it wrong.

I also seem to recall comments on here from ex-BBMF people that some of the incidents were as much down to the pilots around the time…Squadron Leaders Patterson and Tomalin both having troubles with her I think. Tomalin never flew her as well as Mike Chatterton- I could usually tell who was flying her at shows before it was announced!

I beg to differ, I flew with Colin Patterson in the Lanc more times than I can remember, and “he could fly it, what’s more he could land it too” I never felt uneasy with him. However, the capt before and the one after never filled me with confidence. Boss Patterson had I don’t know how many hours on Shaks, I know, Shaks don’t have the same torque, gyroscopic trouble I agree but they are both big 4 engine tail wheel aeroplanes. The only other bomber capts with who could handle 474 with confidence were Mike Chat, Chris Booth and Ed Straw. I’m afraid I don’t like watching the new boys. Just my opinion.
Yes I am ex BBMF from the good old day ha ha.
Mother of em all,,,,

Mick (not really my name)

I’ve got an airshows DVD somewhere that has the Mildenhall incident on.

Around that time I think there were a few incidents of the Lancaster having landing problems…there’s a Discovery Channel documentary which has an on-board sequence filmed from the mid upper turret as she was landing and did the same thing, and a subsequent sequence of her going up on jacks and being inspected, and the undercart being sent away for work while the then new OC BBMF (Rick Groombridge) subtly(!) mentions to someone that he’d been told by the powers that be that the BBMF had a priority when it comes to getting things hurried along through official channels. The guy replies something on the lines of yeah, you, the Red Arrows, and everyone else mate!

In the same programme Sqdn Ldr Groombridge says that the Lanc had been off the runway a few times and that he thought that they’d been landing it wrong, and how they’d talked to some of the old boys who said that only the show offs ever tried to 3-point them and that they usually got it wrong.

I also seem to recall comments on here from ex-BBMF people that some of the incidents were as much down to the pilots around the time…Squadron Leaders Patterson and Tomalin both having troubles with her I think. Tomalin never flew her as well as Mike Chatterton- I could usually tell who was flying her at shows before it was announced!

I remember being at Coningsby when the Lancaster had a serious engine problem, just after take-off. She was on her way to Yeovilton (I think), to do the Poppy drop over the Channel during the D-Day 50th anniversary celebration.

I’m not sure but I seem to remember it being declared as an engine fire, but she certainly landed very quickly, with 3 engines running.

Co-incidently, I went to East Kirkby the next day, and saw “JustJane” fire up the 1st of her engines.

Regards, Cabbage

I watched her take off and the STB outer(? a whiles ago now,memories foggy) start puffing out loads of smoke. It was like a WW2 movie scene. By the time she had gone downwind the smoke had near enough gone. The fire station sprang into action in the fastest time ever…. Once again i was up in the hanger when the cowlings were taken off. The sooties took the Rocker covers off and it was if someone had taken a lump hammer to the parts inside the right bank of the engine. Swarf in the oil was what it was put down to but unsure as to exactly where it had come from due to the damage..

Ive got a piston from the engine that was given to me on an engraved plaque as a leaving prezzy in 1994

There was a pic in Flypast mag on one occasion of the Lanc landing on three. Quite possibly the same incident i guess cabbage!

Rob

I remember being at Coningsby when the Lancaster had a serious engine problem, just after take-off. She was on her way to Yeovilton (I think), to do the Poppy drop over the Channel during the D-Day 50th anniversary celebration.

I’m not sure but I seem to remember it being declared as an engine fire, but she certainly landed very quickly, with 3 engines running.

Co-incidently, I went to East Kirkby the next day, and saw “JustJane” fire up the 1st of her engines.

Regards, Cabbage

I remember that well. There were more than a few sharp intakes of breath
when the cut grass flew up in the air.

It must have been around the same time that when the Red Arrows were
reforming after their display, that there was very nearly a “coming together”.
With one of the pilots saying on the radio, “That was close !”.

1992 30 years ago? Holy crap I must be 40 in a couple of weeks.

I,m nearly a pensioner you know 😀 must be an age thing …….. 20 years ago then 😉

1992 30 years ago? Holy crap I must be 40 in a couple of weeks.

Referring only to the Mildenhall Airshow incident.

Well I was there, in the press enclosure, The Lanc stopped quite close to us, and I believe the crew and ground handlers were milling about in the press area, someone quite authoritative (Crew member?) stated it was a brake problem when asked, which quickly got round the assembled media, that’s how I remember it anyway, it was 20 years ago :confused:

I believe the Lanc flew out the next day after checks.

MY points are from observation of the video and from some knowledge of having worked on, flown in and flown aircraft plus being a part of PA474`s life for 4 years. hear say from over the years that sneek in can cloud judgement..

Isn’t this the reason why the lanc is grounded when crosswinds exceed 10 knots?
Something to do with modern airfields having only one runway so not possible to always land into wind as they would have done during the war. The lanc always had a tendancy to ground loop.

Well I was only talking a out the Mildenhall incident and I can tell you the aeroplane was serviceable i.e. no brake issues.
And as an aside, the rudders on the Lanc are completely masked by the wing with the tail down. My uncle who flew Lancs said to me ” only a bloody good pilot or an idiot tries to 3 point one of them” he had 57 trips, plus hundreds of hours instructing on Lancs under his belt. He never 3 pointed one, “I’m not an idiot he said”

Mick

I’m fairly sure I read or heard something somewhere that this is the reason the Lancaster is landed on it’s main gear and allows the tail to drop when the speed decays and not a near stall three pointer. Due to the rudders being less responsive at landing speeds.
I could of course be wrong!

It intrigues me that members, who are far more knowledgable then me, can offer diametrically opposed views on the cause of the dicey landing……

On aproach PA474 is crabbing sideways. note how the nose is pointing towards the camera, Note also the positioning of the WW1 aircraft at the far end of the airfield before the windsock comes into play. At least two of them have engines running ready for take off and display. They would pretty much take off from where they are standing and would be face into wind (if its not a gentle breeze).

From the cameraman point of view I would say the wind is coming from behind and over his left shoulder. PA474 i would say is landing into a 50/50 nose/crosswind with the rudders being kicked all over the place.

Not sure if your meant to be breaking that early into a landing run as the control surfaces would still have plenty of moving air around them. Although the tail surfaces would be masked by the wings slightly and make them less effective when the tail is down.

It all seemed to happen at that crossover point when your not quite fully on the ground but your not flying either.. At which point it turn in to a juggling act for the pilot.

..