Did British Bombers Have De-icing boots?

Alaxe I had the glycol/propeller de icing tank from a C47 a few years ago that had the same remove before combat  decal. It was a squarer shape. The colour of paint looks American and  looking at US lend lease aircraft – There were two de-icer tanks in an A20 attached drawing and quantities.

Hi everyone, greetings from Russia, and here is the question, if anyone has got an idea, what plane this could be: this tiny anti icing fuel tank was occasionally found in the ground, near Priozersk, Russia (former Swedish – Kexholm, Finnish – Käkisalmi). As far as I understood, it was a servicing tank for a British or American made plane, most likely, one of lend-lease models sent to USSR in 1942-1945. After war the local civilians probably used it as a small canister for kerosene, fixing the holes of the pipes’ outlets. Original texts on front side survived – WARNING: REMOVE TANK BEFORE TAKE OFF FOR COMBAT and probably (? VOLUME??? QTS) – notice, measured in quarts, we can guess, British or American!?

Then – “one unreadable short word, most likely ending with “TE”, ANTI ICING LIQUID, SERVICE BEFORE EACH FLIGHT.

So,  the questions are – which plane, which country of origin, what type of De-icing, and what for the canister could be used. On it’s bottom we can see remains of some holders, probably to fix it on the plane. There were also some small letter text  on the bottom, but it was totally scratched out. 

Interesting question, but in trying to do a bit of internet research I have not found out when or to what aircraft the TKS fluid system was introduced. I know it was fitted to Vickers Vikings & to DH Doves. So if Vikings were they on the Mk I fabric/geodesic (Wellington?) wings, or only on the later MkIa metal wings?
Keith

What’s so contemptible about British types ?

I did, of course, mean contemporaneous rather than contemptuous. I could have used contemporary of course, but I like to walk on the wild side once in a while.

Tired, eyes, Mozilla Firefox’s built in spell checker function, lack of proof reading and lack of personal accountability entirely typical of us millennial types are of course all to blame.

They are very different things Lazy 8, as I’m sure you may know.

Indeed, Piston. I understand that the current convention is, and has been for a long time, that ‘de-icing’ is about removal of ice, and that anti-icing is about prevention. I was just pointing out that when the concepts were new that convention had not been arrived at and the two terms were not always used the way they are now. Then I spotted a modern product which had a description that could be read as doing both at once, and I couldn’t resist. Mischeivous, I admit.

Wasn’t inadequate anti-icing provision one of the sore points between the pilots union and Imperial management around 1938? And wasn’t there some kind of interference with Imperial adopting a proven American Goodyear rubber boot system because Dunlop had shares in Imperial?

There were so many points of issue between Imperial’s pilots and their management… From memory, I think the icing issue related specifically to the Empire boats, as icing was considered to have been a likely factor in several early accidents/incidents. Imperial were already trialling anti/de-icing measures on some aircraft, particularly the Empire boats. Imperial were supposed to support the British aircraft industry wherever possible, as part of the subsidy arrangements with the government, so any external ‘interference’ guiding them away from the Goodyear system need not have been solely Dunlop.

I think that you could be right !

Maybe he meant contemporary?

I understand that some B29s had de-icing boots, whilst others didn’t. I only know this because only one of the three or so that Tupolev worked on to create the Tu-4 had a boot fitted. I’m not sure about contemptuous British types.

What’s so contemptible about British types ? Without exaggeration, I’d bet a million dollars that contemporaneous British designs appointed a member of the crew to leap onto the wing with an axe to do the business.

Wasn’t inadequate anti-icing provision one of the sore points between the pilots union and Imperial management around 1938? And wasn’t there some kind of interference with Imperial adopting a proven American Goodyear rubber boot system because Dunlop had shares in Imperial?

I understand that some B29s had de-icing boots, whilst others didn’t. I only know this because only one of the three or so that Tupolev worked on to create the Tu-4 had a boot fitted. I’m not sure about contemptuous British types.

Post war Lancs here in Canada had deice boots fitted.. they were installed over the original leading edge with fairing/mounting strips around the outside edges…

Whitleys had de-icer boots. Not sure about Hampdens as they had leading edge slats.

If you look at some types…I’ve noticed on B-17s and C-47s but I’m sure there are others…Some ac had the pneumatic black boots and some had them removed.

Anyone know how intensive a job it was to do that?
Specifically, were there new leading edges added in place of the boots…or were they so thin that the original leading edge was under them so (presumably) all they had to do is block then air lines?

Trying to remember back nearly 50 years to my apprenticeship at Dunlop in Coventry……

I think there were three types of rubber ‘boots’.

Those that were rigid and were supplied hot air (from the exhausts?) the heated rubber preventing ice forming (anti-icing)
Those that liquid de-icer fluid was sent under hydraulic pressure through the boot to exude out of small holes and prevent ice forming (anti-icing)
Those that were flexible pneumatic boots where pressurized air was sent in to stretch the rubber and expand it so after the ice formed the expanding rubber would cause the ice break off (de-icing)

However in my days there the latest weren’t exactly boots but rubber strips that had electrical elements running through them which would heat up (anti-icing). These rubber strips would be bonded to the skin of the aircraft and this meant the parts of the aircraft so equipped would be shipped to the Coventry factory and the bonding was carried out in large ovens. There was a lot of Fokker F.27 bits around then, as well as flying surface leading edge units the rubber strips would be all around the engine intakes.

Towards the end of my time there were new l-a-r-g-e ovens being installed for what appeared to be a growing market for anti-icing units for helicopter blades – I think the whole blade went into the oven.

So, ‘rule of thumb’ anti-icing prevents the ice from forming in the first place, de-icing gets rid of the ice once it has formed.

Roger Smith.

yeah you can pretty much pack that in..

In the 1930s and ’40s, if not more recently, the terms ‘de-icing’ and ‘anti-icing’ seem to have been used interchangeably.

[Edit] More recently:
https://www.silmid.com/products/kildf0025l-kilfrost-df-plus-deicing-fluid-25lt-dru.aspx

They are very different things Lazy 8, as I’m sure you may know.
Obviously I’m not grinding an axe Peter, just saying what I see.

Hi

The Stirling had ‘boots’ on the leading edge of the tail, on the main aerial mast and some sort of de-icer for the propellers. At one time they routed the hot exhaust along the front edge of the wings, not sure if that was just an experiment though. The bomb aimer had a ‘screen wash’ for his clear window as did the pilot, I guess that that was actually a de-icer. There are plenty of pictures.

I think that they did the paste thing too but that was from the stories of the ground crew.

I haven’t researched any of that in detail just noticed these bits along the way. I also suspect that all the Marks were slightly different.

Cheers
James

In the 1930s and ’40s, if not more recently, the terms ‘de-icing’ and ‘anti-icing’ seem to have been used interchangeably.

[Edit] More recently:
https://www.silmid.com/products/kildf0025l-kilfrost-df-plus-deicing-fluid-25lt-dru.aspx

Let’s not confuse de-icing with anti icing. I hope Peter doesn’t think I’ve an axe to grind. Just saying what I see.

Kilfrost. IIRC a mixture of lanolin and resin.