Did Dakotas ever drop SOE Agents?

I do indeed have the info – I have a collection of AFEE reports including P45 which detailed the trials on Lancaster I R5660 dated 1/12/42 and Part 2 of P45 which cover the trials on Manchester L7392 dated 28/12/42 (sorry I may have given you a bum steer in the previous post as to the sequence).
The troop exit in both cases is the hole left by the provision for a ventral turret. Only ten paratroops could be carried along with 7 containers at 300 lb each. Not exactly a full bomb load but only the forward half of the bomb bay could be used for cg reasons!

The Airborne Forces Experimental Establishemnt did clear the Lancaster for parachuting…

Thanks for that Aeronut. I’d bet that was through the adapted hole for the ventral turret / H2S radar and NOT through the crew entry door. Do you have the info?

The Airborne Forces Experimental Establishemnt did clear the Lancaster for parachuting and glider towing – its just that Bomber Command didn’t want to release them. A Lanc B1 Special was also used on trials drops for the Boom Patrol Boat (an exploding power boat) belonging to the early SBS, with the crew sat inside!
The AFEE work on the Lancaster permitted them to clear the Manchester at the same time even though they didn’t have an aircraft!
My collection of AFEE reports also have another AVRO aircraft being tested for para work the York. The report on it mentions a feature of the York that I’ve never seen described before – the bomb bay for the supply containers.

I seem to recall some scenes from a film or TV series of Dakotas landing in Yugoslavia, after discussions with current Dak pilots over runway length ,I was wondering how they managed to find fields large enough to land in , let alone big enough to take off from again bearing in mind they had to have enough fuel on board to return to friendly territory.
Alan.

Good point. We tend to forget that in Europe, up to W.W.II almost all airfield were just that – fields. Most aircraft had to be able to take off and land from such places – there simply weren’t runways around! So yes, big fields were a requirement.

It’s also often overlooked that the three-point tailwheel landing technique has the advantage of getting an aircraft down, landed and staying down in the shortest normal run. (That being the point.) A good idea if you want to practice forced landings, and avoid hedges. Taking off again, well… 😉

Cheers!

Neither 138 nor 161 operated Dakotas from the UK normally (although it’s possible they may have been used on occasion) for para dropping, but they were used for landings in the latter part of the war to support the Marquis and in Yugoslavia and Italy, but from the Med, not the UK, and pick-ups / deposits at a temporary landing ground. In the far east, Lysanders and Dakotas were used for agents, including the SOE there, but not, generally, for para dropping. (Quote from JDK)
I seem to recall some scenes from a film or TV series of Dakotas landing in Yugoslavia, after discussions with current Dak pilots over runway length ,I was wondering how they managed to find fields large enough to land in , let alone big enough to take off from again bearing in mind they had to have enough fuel on board to return to friendly territory.
Alan.

My Grandfather leapt out of a Hole in the floor of a Wellington whilst with Paras & Raiding Forces (LRDG/SAS) in Northern Africa.

I believe that there was some SOE/Lysander activity from Somersham in Cambs? I haven’t really dug around too much, but as my daughter is at school there I would be interested if anyone has some info to hand?

Yes looks like it. He’s included an entry there for an OSS op with a yank Dak also. Dates are as you say post D-Day. I guess air superiority is key when using something that big.

Verity states the “Now it Can Be Told’ film was 1945.

Don’t forget they landed Hudsons (not that much smaller than Daks) in occupied France at night throughout the mid-war period. Daylight was the issue.

Verity’s not always right. 😉 The filming of NICBT was wartime – 1944 (possibly part ’43 in my opinion from some internal evidence) and released postwar as an abbreviated version, later the ‘full’ version.

Yes looks like it. He’s included an entry there for an OSS op with a yank Dak also. Dates are as you say post D-Day. I guess air superiority is key when using something that big.

Verity states the “Now it Can Be Told’ film was 1945.

Thanks BR,

That would be landings, not parachute drops.

What were the dates? Post D-Day IIRC. (My Verity’s not to hand…)

Cheers

Check Hugh Verity and We Landed by Moonlight which records 3 operational sorties to France, 1 success with 15 pax to France and 23 returning.

Also see the log at the back. One trip by 267 Sqn seems to have been abandoned due to weather on 8/9 Aug 1944 due to weather and when attempted again on 10/11, “lavender growing across the strip made it impossible to take off with 31 passengers”. Later when they went back “to pick up the eight American aircrew, who had had to disembark, but there was no reception. The isolated farm nearby had been burnt by the Germans and the inhabitants shot”

Thanks for the very comprehensive reply.

Colin

The short answer is ‘not often’.

A bit more detail!

138 and 161 at Tempsford dropped agents using (primarily) Halifaxes and Hudsons, with Whitleys also used in the early days. 138 also operated Stirlings but I believe only stores dropping.

From research I’ve been undertaking (and Steve_p also) it seems that all para drops from the above aircraft were through a hole in the floor – in the Whitley and Halifax from the removed ventral turret / H2S radar position, in the Hudson from the ‘tunnel gun’ position.

Evidence of non-Lysander opps of 161 is hard to get, and you’ll also read about para-jumps from Lysanders, which I believe to be mis-reporting.

“Now it Can Be Told’ the SOE film, made in 1943/4 (Available as a VHS tape from the IWM Lambeth, highly recommended) shows the agents dropping from the hole in the bottom of a Halifax, with their radio and suitcases shoved out of the same hole after them. It’s a contemporary reference which used the real units for the film, so unlike the post-war fictionalised accounts you’ve mentioned can be regarded as reliable.

Neither 138 nor 161 operated Dakotas from the UK normally (although it’s possible they may have been used on occasion) for para dropping, but they were used for landings in the latter part of the war to support the Marquis and in Yugoslavia and Italy, but from the Med, not the UK, and pick-ups / deposits at a temporary landing ground. In the far east, Lysanders and Dakotas were used for agents, including the SOE there, but not, generally, for para dropping.

Given the nature of the work of 161 and 138, written records are not 100% reliable, and personal accounts also not 100%, although generally ‘honest’ so any account needs a bit of educated guesswork to fill the gaps between. Thus I’d never say never. 😀

“Force 10” is a complete work of fiction, a rattling good yarn, but hardly based on what might have really happened! 😉 Jumping from a Lanc door was definitely ’emergency only’.

Lancasters are a known item, so their over use in film is something like Spitfire snobbery. As to film work – there’s 1 airworthy Hudson (in Australia) and no Whitley, Halifax or Stirling, so the Dak’s ready availability in contrast answers the need! “Charlotte Gray” was in terms of the aerial sequences, complete tosh. Otherwise over-dramatic but broadly credible.

Incidentally, while filming ‘A Bridge too Far’ the para dropping required the aircraft to be re-certified as the Parachute Regiment (which did the drops) were using a more modern parachute than the wartime version used with the Dak. The also did not drop with their valises and W.W.II guns.

Hope this helps, maybe Steve P will be along soon?

Edit:
Picture from Hairy’s photo album here (mentioned over on WIX) of a Whitley test drop (wheels normally up and at night for the real thing) also it’s probably for Paratroops rather than agents.

Useful thread Here on Hudsons in 161.

Cheers