Did my grandfather fly in a ghost lancaster?

Yes indeed my grandfather was j wrigley. He probably presumed the aircraft to be ed950 x as he had previously flown in that aircraft on 4 occasions. The orbs have the plane used on 31/8/43 as ja715 x. I am presuming he thought it was the same aircraft as the code letter was x.
I am having trouble uploading pics of logbook.

My father was with 97 Squadron and was on most of those trips listed by Mark, being shot down on the last one listed, Mannheim.

8BALLKID,

Aha — your grandfather was, indeed, J. Wrigley DFM. I just saw it in your post regarding 97 Sqn in the Far East. Phewwww, I guessed correctly (not always the case…).

[EDIT: 8BALLKID did verify that J. Wrigley was his grandpa, as I guessed. I’ve highlighted J. Wrigley’s name in the posting below.]

(Bobg, I hope this clears up a few things for you, too.)

8BALLKID, logbooks often contained errors when recording full serial numbers. Often logbooks only recorded a letter code, which was accurate, but then someone wrongly guesses the serial number. Sometimes logbooks recorded an inaccurate letter code. Without further clarification from you, I don’t know which is the case for your grandfather’s logbook, but I think I can clarify matters for you.

You only wrote:

>> that on 23 Aug 1943 97 Squadron’s ED950 crashed near Doberitz, and that the logbook listed all the crew. This implies that “ED950” was inked in the logbook. Is this correct? Presumably it is. [EDIT: 8BALLKID’s grandfather was not involved with this loss, as noted farther down. Some readers, I think, are under the impression that he was aboard ED950, but no, he must have simply noted the loss of another crew in his logbook.]

>>Your grandfather’s logbook lists him as wireless operator on 31 Aug 1943, with 97 Sqn, takeoff at 00.30, on an op to Munchengladbach skippered by Riches. You did not list either a serial number or a letter code, so we don’t know what, if anything, was inked in the logbook.

>>Your grandfather flew again with the same crew on an op to Berlin aboard ED950, takeoff time 20.30. You did not give a date, or an aircraft letter code, but you did give the serial, so the assumption has to be that an erroneous serial number, with no letter code, was inked in the logbook. But possibly you misinterpreted an inked letter code as being ED950. I don’t know.

Unless you can share exactly what your grandfather inked in his logbook – or, better yet, post digital scans or photos of logbook pages for the 23/24 op and the ops soon thereafter — we can’t know the source of the errors.

You haven’t given the name of your grandfather. I am guessing that he was Sgt J. WRIGLEY.

I can only tell you what the 97 Operations Record Book indicates. The 97 Squadron Association website has downloadable lists of ops and crews, taken from the ORB; see http://www.97squadronassociation.co.uk/operations.html .

For the 23/24 Aug 1943 op, the 97 Squadron ORB lists these details for ED950:

ED950 “X” P/O K.Fairlie, Sgt C.E.Addison, S/L Forrest, S/L E.H.Parrott, Sgts F.Ball, A.J.Cossins, G.Coombs. Bomb load as S/L Sauvage. Up 2038 – aircraft and crew missing.

From a google search on “ED950” it is learned that six died from that crew, but one, Sgt Addison, became a PoW. He was a 2nd pilot; this could not be your grandfather (as you know, but I just wanted to clarify this for others who may be confused).

The ORB notes that after ED950 was lost, it’s letter code “X” was given to a new Lancaster, JA715. And the Riches crew – with J. Wrigley as wireless op – flew two ops aboard JA715 “X” — 30/31 Aug and 31 Aug/1 Sept 1943:

30/31 August 1943 Munchen Gladbach
JA715 “X” F/O W.Riches, Sgts G.Winter, H.W.Watts, E.H.Peck, J.Wrigley, R.W.Lowe, F.C.Nordhoff. 1 x 4000lb, 6 x 1000lb, 6 x 500lb. Up 0041 Down 0443. Munchen attacked. 17,800’. No moon. 3/10ths cloud. Bombed centre of three red TI markers – in bomb sight. Several good fires seen – rather scattered.

31 August/1 September 1943 Berlin
JA715 “X” F/O W.Riches, Sgts G.Winter, H.W.Watts, E.H.Peck, J.Wrigley, R.W.Lowe, F.C.Nordhoff. Up 2028 Down 0344. Target Berlin attacked. 9/10ths cloud at 18,000’. Bombed centre of concentration of green TI markers. Obviously some very good fires under cloud.

The above entries show the same exact crew on those two ops, matching what you wrote. Correct target, also — Berlin — for that second op. The ORB says their takeoff time was 20.28 for the Berlin op, which is two minutes different than what you said: 20.30. This take off time discrepancy between ORB and logbook is typical.

Note again that both ED950 and JA715 were aircraft “X”.

Of the crewmen listed as flying in the Riches crew in JA715 “X” on 3//31 Aug and again on 31 Aug/1 Sept, none flew on 23/24 Aug, when ED950 “X” was lost. Just to make that clear.

J. Wrigley, flying with W. Riches, is specifically identified as a wireless operator on 9/10 August in the ORB. That’s why I think your grandfather, whom you identified as a wireless operator, is this man.

Here are the 12 ops when J. Wrigley is listed in the ORB between 2/3 Aug 1943 and 23/24 Sept 1943 (before and after the loss of ED950 “X”). But there are many other ops listed after 23/24 Sept 1943; J. Wrigley and the Riches crew’s last appearance in the ORB is 18/19 March 1944. Initially W. Riches was the 2nd pilot, but after three ops he became skipper of his own crew, with J. Wrigley as wireless op. I hope these correlate with the logbook. I took these from the web; I can’t vouch for the accuracy of either the transcriptions or the original ORB entries. (You can copy the other ops, through 18/19 March ’44, from the 97 Sqn Assn website.):

2/3 August 1943 Hamburg
ED938 “J” P/O J.F.Munro, F/O W.Riches (2nd Pilot), Sgt G.Winter (F/E), P/O A.H.G.Spencer, P/O E.J.Suswain, Sgts J.Wrigley, K.S.Bennett, F/Sgt W.Hill. Up 2305 Down 0452. Hamburg attacked on ETA. 15,000’ Dark 10/10ths cloud, visibility bad. Scattered bombs on ETA. Nothing seen.

7/8 August 1943 Milan
ED938 “J” F/O J.F.Munro, F/O W.Riches (2nd Pilot), P/O R.C.Swetman, P/O A.H.G.Spencer, P/O E.J.Suswain, Sgts J.Wrigley, K.S.Bennett, F/Sgt W.Hill. Up 2136 Down 0524. Target Milan attacked. Visiblity good except for smoke haze. 11,500’. Single red TI marker in bomb sight at time of bombing. Seven good fires seen increasing north of aiming point. Glow seen from Alps on return journey.

9/10 August 1943 Mannheim
ED939 “H” or “M” W/C R.C.Alabaster (Capt), F/O W.Riches (Pilot), Sgts G.Winter (F/E), H.W.Watts (Nav), K.H.Pack (A/B), J.Wrigley (W/Op), R.W.Lowe, F.C.Nordhoff. Bomb load as P/O Munro. Up 2242 Down 0417. Primary objective attacked. 8/10ths cloud. No moon. Visibility fair. Bombed centre of large scattered group of red TI markers. One explosion seen at 0130.

10/11 August 1943 Nuremburg
ED950 “K” F/O W.Riches, Sgts G.Winter, H.W.Watts, E.N.Pack, J.Wrigley, R.W.Lowe, F.C.Nordhoff. Bomb load as F/L Covington. Up 2146 Down 0507. Nuremburg bombed. 18,000’. 8/10ths cloud. Visibility good above cloud. Single red TI marker in bombsight at time of bombsight. No results seen.

12/13 August 1943 Milan
EE105 “E” F/O W.Riches, Sgts G.Winter, H.W.Watts, E.H.Pack, J.Wrigley, R.W.Lowe, F.C.Nordhoff. Bomb load as S/L Garlick. Up 2114 Down 0540. Objective Milan bombed. 12,300’. Moon. No cloud over target but thunderstorm to east. Able to see buildings and railway station. Bombed on centre of two lines of red TIs. Whole town seemed well alight.

17/18 August 1943 Peenemunde
EE176 “O” F/O W.Riches, Sgts G.Winter, H.W.Watts, E.H.Pack, J.Wrigley, R.W.Lowe, F.C.Nordhoff. Bomb load as F/Sgt Pond. Up 2102 down 0430. Target Peenemunde attacked. Moonlight. 3/10ths cloud. 12,000’. Red TI markers in bomb sight at time of bombing. Smoke screen obscured ground detail except for yellowish glow from fires.

27/28 August 1943 Nuremburg
ED948 “W” F/O W.Riches, Sgts G.Winter, H.W.Watts, E.H.Pack, J.Wrigley, R.W.Lowe, F.C.Nordhoff. Bomb load as F/O de Wesselow. Up 2128 Down 0419. Nuremburg attacked. 16,500’. 2/10ths cloud. Ground haze. Target identified visually by river. Concentration of red TIs in bomb sight at time of bombing. Five separate fires taking hold on leaving target.

30/31 August 1943 Munchen Gladbach
JA715 “X” F/O W.Riches, Sgts G.Winter, H.W.Watts, E.H.Peck, J.Wrigley, R.W.Lowe, F.C.Nordhoff. 1 x 4000lb, 6 x 1000lb, 6 x 500lb. Up 0041 Down 0443. Munchen attacked. 17,800’. No moon. 3/10ths cloud. Bombed centre of three red TI markers – in bomb sight. Several good fires seen – rather scattered.

31 August/1 September 1943 Berlin
JA715 “X” F/O W.Riches, Sgts G.Winter, H.W.Watts, E.H.Peck, J.Wrigley, R.W.Lowe, F.C.Nordhoff. Up 2028 Down 0344. Target Berlin attacked. 9/10ths cloud at 18,000’. Bombed centre of concentration of green TI markers. Obviously some very good fires under cloud.

3/4 September 1943 – Berlin
JD857 “G” P/O W.Riches, Sgts G.Winter, H.W.Watts, E.H.Pack, J.Wrigley, R.W.Lowe, F.C.Nordhoff. Up 2032 Down 0410. 4 x TI, 1 x 4000lb, 5 x 500lb. Primary target attacked. 16,500’. Nil cloud, vis poor. Bombed on estimated centre of target area as judged by glow of fires. No markers seen. Bomb bursts and glow of many fires seen.

22/23 September 1943 – Hanover
JB189 “G” F/O W.Riches, Sgts G.Winter, H.W.Watts, E.H.Pack, J.Wrigley, R.W.Lowe, P/O L.W.Booth. Up 1906 Down 0043. 4 x TI, 1 x 4000lb, 6 x 1000lb. Target Hanover attacked. No cloud, no moon, visibility good. 19,200’. Built up area identified visually in light of flares. Bombed on cascading green TI markers – in bomb sight. Bombs seen to burst among fires.

23/24 September 1943 – Mannheim
JB189 “G” F/O W.Riches, Sgts G.Winter, H.W.Watts, E.H.Pack, J.Wrigley, R.W.Lowe, P/O L.W.Booth. Up 1944 Down 0139. 4 x TI, 1 x 4000lb, 5 x 1000lb. Primary objective attacked. No cloud, vis good. 18,600’. Target identified visually. Bombed between two groups of cascading green TIs – in bomb sight. Several red medium fires seen burning.

So there you go. I hope this clarifies matters a bit.

Cheers,

Matt

My father flew with 97 squadron and I have a copies of the Squadron Operations Record Book for 23/24 August 1943 on which he flew – ‘ target Berlin – Bomb Load 4x TI,1x 4000lb,3x1000lb P.F.F.’ (He was in ED875 code R).

‘ED950 code X. Up 2038 – aircraft and crew missing. Crew P/O K.Fairlie, Sgt C.E. Addison. S/L Forrest, S/L E.H.Parrot, Sgts F.Ball, A.J.Cossins, G.Coombs.’

Looking at your username, your Grandfather was possibly Sgt F.Ball who is listed as missing along with the whole crew.

I only have records of the crews on the missions my father flew and I do not have a record for 31st August 1943, this was my fathers 30th Op before going on leave for one month. He went on to complete the standard pathfinder extended tour of 45 Ops before being posted as an instructor at a H.C.U. He was one the lucky ones who survived, we must remember those who did not.

Did your grandfather survive the war, if he did the squadron records are wrong?.

But note that ORB’s (often compiled by unwilling recording officers) get serial numbers wrong also…

Completely agree with Maple & Ant. The records need to be cross checked in instances like this, for example, which aircraft does the ORB mention for these Ops?

As an example of strange entries in official records I have a copy of a movement card for a Whitley which has an entry that clearly states “Lost at sea”. It went on to have a very useful career at an OTU after that!

Mix-ups with serial numbers and code letters were quite common, it does happen that lost or transferred aircraft continue to show up in Log Books and Squadron Operations Record Books etc when in fact they had been replaced.

If your grandfather had flown ED950 before it’s loss he’d already have its number and letter in his log book, he may have not even noticed he was flying in a replacement with the same individual letter and used the old serial number when writing-up his book after the flight