Digging The Great Escape – Recently broadcast documentary!

How do you know I have not or do not?

I don’t think I suggested you haven’t, or that you don’t!!

Andy, I’ve said it here before and I am going to say it again, why the hell don’t you leave it to the professionals, you “amateurs” are just wasting time, space and are just not up to the task 🙂

:):p

Television reaches a far wider audience than aviation and military history people. Sometimes it is overlooked that many facts are not widely known to the general public and programmes like this help raise awareness of history.

Exactly ! Hopefully this programme will have created some interest in some who normally wouldnt have given a second thought to the reality behind the film. Yes, there were many more escapes, yes there were many more examples of almost unbeleivable courage that have gone unrecognised or have been forgotten with the passage of time. But if an interest can be engendered in the younger generation by programmes such as this then the sacrifice of those great men will not be forgooten.

Must go. Off to work on some other “pointless exercise” for TV and get organised for participation in another “pointless exercise” in January and participation in the RAF annual Long March re-creation.;)

Andy, I’ve said it here before and I am going to say it again, why the hell don’t you leave it to the professionals, you “amateurs” are just wasting time, space and are just not up to the task 🙂

Of course, those who are of the mind that such programmes are a waste of space could always come up with their own ideas and pitch them to broadcasters ‘cos I sure as hell wonder why I bother sometimes!

How do you know I have not or do not?

It occurs to me that the problem of excavating ‘Harry’ or any of the other tunnels at the former Stalag Luft III is that the ground conditions, the passage of time and the materials that the tunnels were constructed from will mean that any remains will effectively be destroyed during the archaeological excavation.

Destroying the remains of ‘Harry’ while excavating it isn’t necessarily a problem for me because the alternative seems to be not excavating it, ever. At least the work that was done during the documentary finally located exactly the entrance shaft. Also some of the artefacts recovered will give a useful insight into exactly how the tunnels were constructed and the sooner the artefacts are recovered the better condition they are likely to be in (probably).

If I were to suggest how to protect the excavation (and excavators) from collapse of the sandy-soil I would have driven a ten-by-ten metre square ‘box’ of steel piles, down to ten metres, around the shaft of ‘Harry’ and then done the archaeology as I dug the sand out of it.

However I am neither a Mining-Engineer or an Archaeologist…..so what the hell do I know! 😀

Presumably the team involved considered and rejected this option based on the destruction of ‘Harry’ that would be the inevitable outcome…..not forgetting, of course, that ‘Harry’ is now in Poland and doesn’t belong to the RAF or those who were excavating it.

I did enjoy the documentary and much of my enjoyment was derived from the respect shown by the current Mining-Engineers for the skills of the would-be escapers!

You can watch it on 4 On Demand now on your PC.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/digging-the-great-escape/4od

Mike

(you need to register first)

Television reaches a far wider audience than aviation and military history people. Sometimes it is overlooked that many facts are not widely known to the general public and programmes like this help raise awareness of history.

I look forward to catching a repeat whenever that happens?

Snoopy

Why? Let me try to answer that.

The point was that an operation of sorts was planned as part of ongoing Force Development Exercise for serving RAF officers in a project organised by historian Dr Howard Tuck of Minerva who provide RAF heritage training and force “staff rides” to battle sites etc. So, in one form or another it was planned anyhow and that is why RAF personnel were involved. Not just for fun or for set dressing.

When Howard Tuck discussed the plan with me and asked me to get involved I suggested that it might make engaging television and thus introduced him to Wildfire TV who immediately sought and obtained a commission from Channel 4. Not only that, but getting Ch4 on board might make for a rather more ambitious RAF personnel training and development/staff awareness exercise than would otherwise be the case. Clearly, they were able to throw much more money at it (a great deal, in fact) than could the MOD/RAF…in fact, they funded what might otherwise have been funded by the taxpayer (albeit in a rather more ambitious style) but would only have been seen and experienced by those present and involved.

Further, I really don’t think you appreciate the engineering, archaeological, logistical, financial, beaurocratic and unexpected issues that arose in several weeks of very hard work. And no, the team did not have seventy years to work out where it was. Of course…if you or anyone else could have organised it all and done better….well……need I go on? There are those that do and there are those that can’t. But at the end of it all, you DID enjoy it. So I’m not sure what your point is.

Anyway, I hope that explains the “Why”?

Graham

Beg to differ. Whilst the failure to properly deal with Harry was disappointing due to some issues at the front end of the project I still think the finds were stunning. There! I’ve said it. I’ll say it again. STUNNING!!

Of course, those who are of the mind that such programmes are a waste of space could always come up with their own ideas and pitch them to broadcasters ‘cos I sure as hell wonder why I bother sometimes!

Must go. Off to work on some other “pointless exercise” for TV and get organised for participation in another “pointless exercise” in January and participation in the RAF annual Long March re-creation.;)

…and if I hear the word ‘stunning’ one more time…! I think if one of them had gone to the bathroom during a scene someone would have called it ‘a stunning movement’!

Why?

The ‘Great Escape’ is a great story, justly famous and of course a great tragedy. However, the story is very, very well known, unlike many events which have passed the popular consciousness. Many participants have written of it, book as well as articles etc, and when more of them were alive, were interviewed many times. We have their stories, drawings, sketches, memorabilia and artefacts, even photographs kindly provided by the Germans. The blurb for the program read as though the episode were some sort of mystery, rather than an event that has been fully documented almost ad nauseam. The shaft was sunk in the wrong place, when they had had 70 years to work-out where it was. They then had difficulties with the sand which were well known and predictable. Even if they had got there….the damp old timbers would either have already caved-in, or been unsafe to go inside.
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I’m a sucker for documentaries, so I DID enjoy it….but…it was all a pretty pointless exercise setting-out to discover what we already know in pretty comprehensive detail.

Excellent, interesting programme. I shared the feeling of disappointment that ‘Harry’ was not reached but I could see that it was a severe challenge.

I thought for once the reconstruction part by the RAF team was done very well and seemed relevant. All too often this sort of thing seems to be done to pander to the attention span and imagination challenged section of the modern audience, but not on this programme.

I never cease to be impressed by the can do attitude of the veterans of these times in their old age. Much respect.

Brilliant programme..even the wife watched it all the way through!!..I must say the old guy who accepted the ride on the trolley was sprightly for his age..dropped down like he was about to do 1oo press-ups.

Not as far as I know.

And who knows how it might end, one day?

G-ASEA (Dave)

It is also the case that the team hoped it would have been rather more interesting had proper access to Harry proved to have been possible.

Beaufighter VI (Pete)

It is certainly the case that the 1943 tunnellers were highly skilled and adept at what they turned their hand to, and despite the paucity of materials and equipment they had 24/7 x 365 to do and think about nothing else. Despite the outcome, ingenuity and determination won the day when it came to digging the tunnel. The 2011 team had only three weeks or so on site to work out where to dig, where to sink the shaft and to achieve very different goals to those set by the escapers. I think it a little unfair, to say the very least, to label the team as “experts” (your quotation marks) when they were certainly all leading experts (no quotation marks) in their fields; ie engineering, tunnelling, POW history and battlefield archaeology. The rather disappointing outcome (in respect of Harry) was not through any lack of planning, project design, team failure or lack of skill or of technical knowledge.

While I understand that finding the money would be the biggest issue, is there anything beyond that which would prevent a further effort from being made to get down to Harry at a later time?

G-ASEA (Dave)

It is also the case that the team hoped it would have been rather more interesting had proper access to Harry proved to have been possible.

Beaufighter VI (Pete)

It is certainly the case that the 1943 tunnellers were highly skilled and adept at what they turned their hand to, and despite the paucity of materials and equipment they had 24/7 x 365 to do and think about nothing else. Despite the outcome, ingenuity and determination won the day when it came to digging the tunnel. The 2011 team had only three weeks or so on site to work out where to dig, where to sink the shaft and to achieve very different goals to those set by the escapers. I think it a little unfair, to say the very least, to label the team as “experts” (your quotation marks) when they were certainly all leading experts (no quotation marks) in their fields; ie engineering, tunnelling, POW history and battlefield archaeology. The rather disappointing outcome (in respect of Harry) was not through any lack of planning, project design, team failure or lack of skill or of technical knowledge.

Great book from fighter Pilot in Stalag Luft III

Been reading a truly fine book ,written by a RCAF Hurricane Pilot who was shot down and captured in the N African desert in 1942. He ended up in Stalag Luft III…he was down in the tunnel when the escapers were discovered. Great insights into daily life & the constant battle with the Germans…great book ! Here is the website !

http://www.goonintheblock.com/

BlueNoser352!!!!

Seems to me the guys in prison knew a lot more about digging a tunnel than the highly qualified “experts” of today who were planning the dig for three years. Once again small is beautiful.

I can get a message to him, I’m sure.

Feel free to do so, two strong links, i.e Scheidhauer crash landing in Jersey and Roy Brouard Langlois who was #80 out of the tunnel and one of the first to be captured when the escape was discovered. He came from Guernsey. A very tentative link is a PRU pilot called Amos who was shot down over Guernsey and ended up sharing the same hut as Brickhill.

Langlois story

I found it very disapointing. Had hoped it would be more intresting. To me it just dragged on.

Dave