disgraced squadrons?

Hi all

Interesting thread on 33. I have just spoken to someone in the office who served on the SQD and can confirm the reason behind celebrating the Crete saga. The sad part of this is the instruction given by Hitler that all aircraft engineers must be shot. Reason being it only took 20-30 hours to train a pilot for combat but 100`s of hours to train an engineer. Remove the engineer and you remove the power to fly.

thanks

colin

I’m not asking Peter Gwynn-Jones, Dave, because while there may be no such thing as a stupid question, there certainly is a thoughtless one. And this is it.

Yes, I realise this fully. But until some official advice is sought, there’s no point debating further this myth, nor perpetuating it. At least the man in charge could nip it in the bud as it were. Personally though, I’m not going to waste the stamp.

Thanks for the support on the issue. ‘Colours’ of course is the regimental or unit flag. It’s also used to mean the ~ah~ hues that the unit’s markings and badge are painted or embroidered in.

Don Clark has just contacted me off-board to point out, quite rightly, that I am mistaken. The memory is playing tricks. A squadron’s flag is the Squadron Standard, not Colour. Only the Air Force itself has a Colour, ie the RNZAF was presented the Queen’s Colour, the most sacred flag in the RNZAF. So, that clears it up for me, we’re talking about paint.

This is the simple bit. Whatever unit ‘colours’ we are talking about, there is no-evidence, or use for ‘disgrace’.

Agreed. Before this thread I knew nothing of this, but logic and research says it must be purely scuttlebuck.

I find it hard to believe this is true.

Why woudl the RAF impose this mark of disgrace on a whole squadron, including presumably those groundrew who had been left behind? Why not just drop the squadron number totally and form a new squadron under another number? Why not court martial or otherwise punish officers who had shown cowardice? And isn’t the association of the colour yellow with cowardice an American tradition not a British one?

I have not the time to go through all these emails, so if this point has been amde already then I appologise.. But surely it is easier, and there are enough Numbers from 1 to Infinity to ensure that if any Sqn’s were in ‘disgrace’ that they were never ever reformed again and allowed to disband in the many ‘defence reviews’ since then to make this ‘colour use’ irrelevant in the first place!

Interesting suggestion. Logical, but neither possible not part of the military mind.

I’m not an RAF expert, but it’s clear that there is a preference to keeping the low numbered Squadrons – 617 literally being the exception that proves the rule. A large ‘chunk’ of previously used numbers were allocated to RAAF/RCAF/Polish/Czech units either in, or working with the RAF. Those are either taken by the inheriting unit and can be considered to be not available.

I’m not asking Peter Gwynn-Jones, Dave, because while there may be no such thing as a stupid question, there certainly is a thoughtless one. And this is it.

Thanks for the support on the issue. ‘Colours’ of course is the regimental or unit flag. It’s also used to mean the ~ah~ hues that the unit’s markings and badge are painted or embroidered in.

This is the simple bit. Whatever unit ‘colours’ we are talking about, there is no-evidence, or use for ‘disgrace’.

A couple more points. What recruits are told / taught as part of their training is to make them good soldiers / sailors / airmen in a number of ways. Creative spin on unit histories (especially ‘other’ units) is a fact of life. Statements about units not being ‘allowed’ to return to the home land are eyewash. In the west, the military is an arm of the civil power. If the politicians wish to deploy or disband a unit, it happens, and traditions both real and, like this one IMHO, are simply ignored. I refer doubters to the current state of regiments in the British Army.

And the origin for this load of hogwash, on reflection, probably lies with British Army meta-tradition. Lots of regiments ‘remember’ when some other regiment let them down in the Crimea or the Napolionic wars, etc, and to instil a strong esprit de corps these stories are trotted out and reinforced. They may be true, or not, but the are about someone else, and how YOU are lucky to be in THIS unit.

This whole subject is as clear as mud. I mean, it all seems so implausable in the first pkace and Paul McMillan makes a very valid point too. But if this is to be debated properly, it needs clarification of what’s being discussed.

Les B said

The subject of the thread is a squadron’s markings, not the badge. Completely different thing altogether

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Is that what it’s about? The original question did not state aircraft markings or badges, it says colours.

Many squadrons in the RAF have yellow in their colours ie; 3,4,16,20,33 etc

I took that on initial reading to mean Colour, as in the squadron flag. I did ask for clarification on this layer and no-one answered. I think this may also have confused James earlier on (and others), which is why he was talking about Battle Honours and Heraldry

If someone can clarify which is actually being discussed, aircraft markings or Squadron Colours (the flag the King/Queen presents to a Squadron…), or whether it might make a jot of difference, it may help.

As I posted earlier, why not ask the man in charge, Peter Gwynn-Jones. He should have the definitive answer.

I have not the time to go through all these emails, so if this point has been amde already then I appologise.. But surely it is easier, and there are enough Numbers from 1 to Infinity to ensure that if any Sqn’s were in ‘disgrace’ that they were never ever reformed again and allowed to disband in the many ‘defence reviews’ since then to make this ‘colour use’ irrelevant in the first place!

I have been asked to post this on behalf of who has cancelled his account and has no wish at present to reinstate:

It might be helpful to shed some factual light on this thread.

Heraldically speaking, yellow and gold are equivalent colours, representing surpassing valor, celestial light, joy, honor, generosity, or elevation of the mind
http://www.theheraldrysociety.com/resources/faq.htm
See also:
http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/
and
The Art of Heraldry. Origins, Symbols, Designs
By Peter Gwynn-Jones, Garter Principal King of Arms.

On Squadron badges: For the units mentioned here, their badges were all designed well before the outbreak of war in Sep 1939, by the RAF Inspector of Badges in the College of Arms in the mid to late 1930s, and personally approved by the late sovereign HM King George. Some of these units, 84 Squadron eg, were already overseas at that date, and well before any of the supposed disgraces so freely bandied about unchecked here.

On Squadron “colours”: This must refer to the coloured bars applied as recognition aids by RAF fighter Squadrons in the biplane age from the early 1920s to the mid 1930s, well before any possible WWII “disgrace”. Perhaps the best case to refute this entirely mistaken argument about yellow is No 74 (Fighter) Squadron, the “Tiger” Squadron. Disbanded in 1919, reformed at sea in Sep 1935 en route to the Med, returning from Malta to Hornchurch a year later where it re-equipped with Gloster Gauntlets, to which the Squadron soon applied its “colours” for the first time: the unmistakable yellow and black tiger-skin alternating “teeth” in a horizontal bar. About this time the Squadron’s badge had been approved: A tiger’s head, motto: I fear no man.

On the situation in Sumatra and Java in Feb Mar 1942, the groundcrew of 84 and 211 Squadron were still at sea aboard SS Yoma when the two newly arrived air parties of the Squadrons, with the remnants of 60 and 27 Squadron and others were attempting to operate against the Japanese from Palembang PII. Arriving at Oosthaven 13 Feb 1942, the ground echelons disembarked only re-embark within 2 days without having joined their Squadrons at PII, 250km away to the NNW. Having fought most of their 40+ aircraft to a standstill, the air echelons were about to withdraw successfully to Java. There the groundcrew and heavy equipment arrived at Batavia to be caught in port and ground organisation confusion. It was only by the strenuous representations of ground and air parties that some ground personnel were sent on to the Squadrons now operating out of Kalidjati with their few remaining aircraft. There were about 100 aircrew in each of 84 and 211 Squadron, and around 400 ground crew.

By mid February 1942 there were about 12,000 RAF personnel on Java, about 10,000 of whom had arrived between 12 and 18 February from Malaya and Singapore in great disorder, from a tactical loading and movement point of view. Despite the lack of time to organise in a rapidly deteriorating situation, 211, 84, and 205 Squadrons were able to form some sort of order and to mount operations, albeit at considerable cost.

As an example, by 26 Feb, 211 Squadron were down to 2 serviceable Blenheims and handed its aircraft over to 84 Squadron. Shortly thereafter, withdrawal of its air and groundcrew began, staging through Bandoeng towards Tjilatjap. Kota Gede slipped for Colombo in the evening of 27 Feb with 2,500 evacuees including some 211 Squadron personnel, arriving safely on 6 March.
By 1 March, Squadron’s personnel had gathered at Tjilatjap to wait for evacuation.A further 64 aircrew and groundcrew of the Squadron were lucky to be among the last RAF personnel evacuated from Java, aboard 205 Squadron’s tender for its Catalinas RAFA Tung Song. Leaving Tjilatjap on 2 March, they reached Fremantle on 13 March 1942.

In the period immediately before the Dutch administration surrendered to the Japanese, about 7,000 RAF personnel were evacuated from Sumatra and Java (although not all made it to safety), leaving 5,100 taken prisoner in Java, many of them unarmed and many skilled tradesmen, of whom at least 339 were 211 Squadron personnel. Of the 5,102 RAF PoWs in Japanese captivity, 1,714 died: that is, about 33% or one in every three. All these servicemen endured the most extreme privations at the hands of their captors. Civilians, women and children fared little better.

In the event, despite the strenuous efforts of the Royal Navy to clear the port of Batavia (Tanjong Priok) and of Tjilatjap in order secure adequate movement of personnel, heavy losses of naval and merchant vessels were suffered and a complete evaucation became impossible before the Dutch administration surrendered on 8 March 1942. The difficulty in selecting who was to stay and who was to go was well understood by the men taking part, as modern narratives confirm.

There is no doubt that there were difficulties in coordination on the ground through ABDA Command and at Station level, however, the fact that the Squadrons were able to operate almost to the last and stage some sort of orderly evacuation in a highly confused situation reflects credit on the Squadron commanders and their surviving senior personnel.

It is the case that AVM Sir Paul Maltby made unfortunate remarks on parade at PII, largely in ignorance of the fighting already undertaken by the aircrews with little ground support. On inspection, Maltby professed to find their lack of fresh laundry an indication of poor morale. He did not seek to enquire what sorties they had achieved to date, nor the losses they had taken in so doing. The remarks were reported in Australia by returning airmen in the most scathing terms, from memory “the exhortations of senior commanders who the men seldom see are met with all the respect that they deserve”: the file recording this lies to this day in the Australian War Memorial archives. Still, having survived captivity himself, in drafting his post-war narrative despatch Maltby found himself able to report the events he had in part witnessed and had wholly oversighted in a considerably more generous light.

Sources:
On Silver Wings/Lumsden & Thetford
Scorpions Sting: the Story of No 84 Squadron RAF/Neate (84 Squadron)
So Long Singapore/Campbell and Lovell
Bloody Shambles Vol II Shores et al
Their Last Tenko/Home (242 Squadron)
Battle for Palembang/Kelly (258 Squadron)
The Forgotten Air Force/Probert
Glory in Chaos/Hall
Report on Air Operations During the Campaigns in Malaya and Netherlands East Indies Dec 1941ˆMar 1942 AVM Maltby; London Gazette, Supplement, Feb 1948
Dept of the Navy ABDA DSTO narrative AWM 78/450/1
211 Squadron RAF Far East and narrative pages of eg L Abbs: www.211squadron.org

Don Clark
www.211squadron.org

Point stays the same though. There’s a difference between ‘zapping’ another unit with a fly-by-night paint-job and the unit painting a ‘secret disgrace’ marking on its own machines… Who would do it and why? Clearly they wouldn’t. Hence my attitude.

Totaly agree. No squadron I know of would willingly apply such markings to their aircraft indicating some past “disgrace”. Just wouldn’t happen.

‘Zapping’ on the other hand is (or was) widespread but in my recollection (and sometime use 😉 ) was never used to point out any dark secret. Was always humourous, sometimes very pointedly so, see here, but never malicious.

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The subject of the thread is a squadron’s markings, not the badge. Completely different thing altogether.

Thanks for the correction Les, sloppy of me. You are right of course, but there is a heraldic element in the unit’s markings, both in principle and (attempted) regulation. The RAF’s marking history can be summarised as units trying to push at what they are able to get away with against the restrictions of authority trying to impose order and good manners!

Point stays the same though. There’s a difference between ‘zapping’ another unit with a fly-by-night paint-job and the unit painting a ‘secret disgrace’ marking on its own machines… Who would do it and why? Clearly they wouldn’t. Hence my attitude.

What a load of tosh is being circulated by some here.

So it would certainly seem.

I’ve yet to see any attempt to explain who would be responsible for adding ‘yellow’ to a unit’s badge, . . .

The subject of the thread is a squadron’s markings, not the badge. Completely different thing altogether.

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What a load of tosh is being circulated by some here.

Yellow was not originally a heraldic colour Gold (Correctly ‘Or’) is represented by yellow on some versions of arms, but was originally only to be used as a background. And what is often reported by laymen as ‘yellow’ in arms is actually gold.

From here. Oh dear, that kind of confuses things, doesn’t it?

I’ve yet to see any attempt to explain who would be responsible for adding ‘yellow’ to a unit’s badge, and how they would go about it.

Still, repeating old wives tales beats thinking for some, obviously.

I think that by trying to introduce facts into this discussion you are pushing **** up hill, 😀

What a load of tosh is being circulated by some here.

Yellow was not originally a heraldic colour Gold (Correctly ‘Or’) is represented by yellow on some versions of arms, but was originally only to be used as a background. And what is often reported by laymen as ‘yellow’ in arms is actually gold.

In heraldry, yellow indicates honor and loyalty. Later the meaning of yellow was connected with cowardice.

From here. Oh dear, that kind of confuses things, doesn’t it?

I’ve yet to see any attempt to explain who would be responsible for adding ‘yellow’ to a unit’s badge, and how they would go about it.

Still, repeating old wives tales beats thinking for some, obviously.

What about IX, XIII, 28, 31, 47, 100, of the sqns still going? No stories going around about IX, that’s for sure.

FF

I serve on IX(B) Sqn and can assure you that there is nothing in our history about being disgraced to my knowledge. Saying that I have heard the rumours about 8 Sqn and IV Sqn respectively, I always thought that they were rumours though, didn’t think there was any truth to them. Guess I was wrong!

Neil, thanks for that. I have a suspicion that the bars may have had a yellow edging to them in Hornet or Javelin days, in the same way as Les outlines for 3 Sqn’s bars gaining a yellow edge.

I have looked through some old photos of 33 Sqn Hornets at Butterworth in the mid-50’s. As Neil suggests, the colouring appears to be dark blue/light blue/red. There is an edging to the bars, but that is a dark colour, possibly black.

I have only seen a couple of photos of 33’s Javs. The colour arrangement was the same.

Although all the photos were black and white, there was no trace of what might have been yellow in the markings.

For Kev and others who have decided to research this I guess a good place to start would be to ask this chap:

Inspector of Royal Air Force Badges
Peter Gwynn-Jones, Garter King of Arms
HQ PTC (LON)
Bldg 263
RAF Bentley Priory
Stanmore
Middlesex
HA7 3HH

Neil, thanks for that. I have a suspicion that the bars may have had a yellow edging to them in Hornet or Javelin days, in the same way as Les outlines for 3 Sqn’s bars gaining a yellow edge.

This actually shows just how much rumour is prevelant around squadrons. Jon Lake’s profile of the Lightning in the now-defunct Wings Of Fame reported the suggestion (the author was/is too sensible to report it as fact) that 74 Squadron ‘put up a black’ (literally) when in Singapore, by painting the tails of the Lightnings black, in contravention of the 1966 Air Ministry directive on markings. The rumour was that as a punishment for this, 74 was consigned to the wilderness.

In fact, the record shows that the RAF spent much of the 1970s trying to reform 74, completely destroying the rumour – but it still persists!

squadrons

Just a quick request for some info. Many squadrons in the RAF have yellow in their colours ie; 3,4,16,20,33 etc. I have always been told it is because at some time in their past they abandoned the ground crew to their fates! Until a few years ago I believe 33sqn (celebrated?) Crete day ,and were at one time the only “chicken” sqn to serve in the UK. Is there any truth to these urban myths? If so would be interested in hearing the background to some of them..thanks in advance. jase.

Hi,
I heard a similar story from an ex RAF groundcrew, he said there were a few squadrons with a ‘black mark’ against them, ( as i recall it the few he mention were in the battle of france ), apparently it used to effect where they could be based he said.
Can’t recall the numbers now and never really followed it up with serious research.
As said a ‘touchy & delicate ‘ subject, bit like the rumoured ‘gas bombers’ converted but not used in the BoB.
Cheers
Jerry

Like John Cooper in my years in the mob I didn’t hear of this “disgrace” thing. There had been some myths about one sqn not being allowed to fly from UK soil again, it might even have been 8 but, as with all such things, it was mostly bar-talk.

Do know about 3 Sqn though. 3 Sqn has had a green band ever since it flew Snipes although it was not used on some aircraft – eg, the Vampires where only the acorn fairing at the fin was painted green. The green was supposed to represent the green grassy plain of Larkhill where the sqn was formed in 1912, and was “borrowed” from the Wiltshire crest.

The first instance of a yellow edging to our green band came when the sqn took up with the Sabre in early 1953 in Germany. The nose intake structure was painted green and a yellow band added to demarcate it from the camo green of the rest of the airframe – this from the sqn historian. Then, when 3 Sqn set up a Sabre aerobatic team (4-ship) those aircraft had the sqn’s Cockatrice crest painted on the fin to distinguish them from 67 Sqn’s similar Sabre team. This crest, a white circle containing a red and blue Cockatrice, was painted onto a horizontal green band which, again, was demarcated from the camo scheme by two thin edging lines in yellow. This arrangement was followed for 3 Sqn’s time with the Javelin and Hunter as well.

When, at Geilenkirchen in ’61, 3 Sqn took over 59 Sqn’s Canberra B(I)8s the 59 device on the fin was initially replaced with just a white circle containing the blue and (now) grey Cockatrice of 3 Sqn. It was a couple or so years later in 1963/4 that the well-known yellow-edged green band re-appeared on the fin under our “****-on-a-Rock”. I understand that now some of the current 3 Sqn crew are saying the yellow represents the “sand” they have been playing in for the past few years :rolleyes:.

It would seem then that the yellow in 3 Sqn’s markings is as a result of “convenience” and not some past disgrace. Although . . .

My time on the sqn was during its nuke days of the mid 60s and, I suppose, it could be said that the groundcrews would have been the ones to disgrace the pilots! If Mission 1 had ever come about we’d have seen the pilots off and then high-tailed it back to the UK (via Ostend) in 3-tonner Magirus-Duetz trucks filled with familes. So the tables would have been turned I guess. 😉

So Jase, as for the subject of the thread I don’t think that yellow in a sqn markings denotes anything “sinister”. Many sqns have yellow in their markings, eg 16 Sqn wore a yellow-edge black band around the rear fuse of their Canberras and 74 Sqn have yellow and black chequers. There’s probably dozens of other examples too.

Good story though Jase, perfect for those beery evenings in the Swamp. :rolleyes:

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Andy in Beds and DJJ. Thanks for enlightening me. Just goes to show, either I don’t recollect as well as I used to (advancing years?), or I was told an untruth, or maybe something inbetween. Who knows.

Hello, i found this suggestion interesting. I flew Puma’s for 3 & half years with 33 Sqn in the 80’s and our Sqn colours are light Blue/dark Blue/red ….. NO YELLOW, so where did that come from ?? 33 sqn is one of the FEW squadrons that is allowed to keep its ‘Fighter Band Colours’ even though we dont fly fighters anymore! Crete Day is celebrated as the day 33 Groundcrew fixed bayonets and made a valliant retreat at Crete whilst the aircrew flew off leaving them behind!! Hardly suprising since they flew off in Hurricanes, emptied thir guns into the enemy, then went to find somewhere ‘friendly’ to put down! …Sounds sensible to me! What else could they do! The retreat stories by the groundcrew are documented and show that they were made of stirling stuff … i recommend a read sometime. The Sqn celebrates the Groundcrews action as a key feature of the Sqn history. Which other Sqns do the same? Hope this answers a few questions. Cheer all, Neil