Dislike for the United States

To understand how China is ruled and governed, in Chinese culture and spiritual belief, there is something called the Mandate of Heaven. Even today, even with Communism, this belief still exists. The current government has that Mandate and it must work to preserve that.

However, no matter what kind of government you are, democratic or autocratic, capitalist or communist, native monarchry or foreign, once a government loses the Mandate of Heaven, it’s time for a change.

Civil unrest, peasant unrest, natural disasters, death of a leader, war and defeat, even portents from the sky, they can be taken as signs of Heaven’s displeasure, and the Mandate taken from it. Thus the government must keep its people happy, maintain peace, order and security, and must do its duty in order to preserve that Mandate. If you lose that Mandate, no matter what you do, Change will come as inevitable as the tide.

“but if US keeps testing our patents with illegal arms sale to taiwan then there will come a point when not even the CCP can keep the lid on the anger boiling down among the population itself.”

I forgot to add: jealose PARANOID boors

ttp:

“Crobato,

Plawolf said in an earlier post that if it weren’t for the Communist party, or the government in place now, China would become a divided nation, much like what happened to the old USSR when all the different “states” sought independence, You on the other hand say the Chinese are very nationalisticSo which one of you are right??? Read one of Plawolf’s earlier posts on the subject”.

i think in a way we are both right. the majority of chinese are very patriotic and a scence of nationalism is growing fast within china. but there are, and always will remain those who just dont like things the way they are and think that they can do better; there are those (often in minorities) who always disliked the Han (majority chinese) and dislike being ruled by us; there are also some who simply want to have their own little kingdoms and empires. this is fairly common in nations with long histories and vast cultural diversities.

of course, there are also some who suffered injustice at the hands of corrupt local officials and so think all Han are like them, or have suffered at the hands of the Han in the past (mostly during the japanese invation and cival war); there are also some minorities or religous groups who came from neighbouring countries, where they are the majority, to try to cause unrisings so that parts of china will break away and jion them…

these ppl will always try to break away or sth, but they usually do not represent the wishes of the majority they claim they are fighting for.

such groups can never achieve sustain themselves, and are usually supported from abroad by nations who either see china as a threat and are trying everything to undermined us, or have some sort of terretorial dispute with china but dont have the military means to take what they see as rightfully theirs.

currently, these nations knows china’s position and attetude towards them, and although they often support such groups with money, equipment, media support and even training in some cases, they still do not dare to make thing too obvious because if they are caught red handed, then the political and possible military reprecussions are too great for them to sustain. but by keeping things under raps, the groups they support can never hope to achieve their goals.

and there lies the problem for china if we left taiwan go. by setting such a president for those nations, we would be telling them that it is possible to force us to conceed terrotory if they raised the stakes high enough. this could:

a) start a regional arms race, where our neighbours think they can blackmail us if they have enough arms to inflict serious damage on us in a war.

b) lead to cival unrest because on one hand, more ppl will be encouraged by taiwan’s independence and think if they caused enough trouble we would just let them go. this would most likely lead to a surge in the number of these ‘independence groups’ as well as the number and furosity of terrorist attacks in china. on the other hand, there would be a massive public backlash by nationalisc youths shocked and disgusted by the government’s decision and subsiquent events.

c) lead to war with one or even many of our neighbours. if neighbouring countries try to blackmails us and the stakes are raised too high for either side to back down, then there can only be war. and (if u r sinical), there may even be a chance of china starting a war with a weak neighbour to divert public opinon.

there are many other possible ‘deasater’ scanarios that might result from taiwan declearing independence. but i think the point is made clear enough. if u back off when u are pushed, then more ppl are going to have a go at pushing u around to see if they can get sth from u, we nor any otehr responsible government simply cannot set such a president to the world.

Originally posted by TTP
Crobato,

Plawolf said in an earlier post that if it weren’t for the Communist party, or the government in place now, China would become a divided nation, much like what happened to the old USSR when all the different “states” sought independence, You on the other hand say the Chinese are very nationalisticSo which one of you are right??? Read one of Plawolf’s earlier posts on the subject.

The Situation between the USSR and the PRC is a bit different. In the USSR many of the major “minority” groups had their own “autonomous SSR” named after them and usually (but not always) had it’s own governer controlling it that was of that ethnic group..and in the USSR minorities made up at least 50% of the population.. and not to sound racist or anything but they were more “advanced”, almost all of those ethnicities were conquered recently around 50-100 prior to the establishment of the USSR and its people were strongly nationalistic and took advantage of the weakness in 91 and separated (although there were some autonomous areas in the USSR that decided to stay such as Tatarstan and Kalmykia.

As for the PRC, the minorities are only 10%, not 50% like in the USSR, so this gives alot of power to the majority.. also alot of the minorities in the PRC are “backwards” (again not to sound racist or anything), as many of them were still living in “simple” methods of living such as nomadisim, tribalism, etc while in comparison to the USSR’s minority, Latvia, Lithuania, etc were more modern. The only autonomous areas in the PRC that could seperate is Tibet (Xizang), Xinjiang (also known as Eastern Turkestan and Uighurstan), and Inner Mongolia. Tibet has calmed down in the past 10 years, and Inner Mongolia has been quiet as well, only Xinjiang represents the area that wants to break away as it has alot of activities even until today.

which rock have u been under for the last decade mixtec?

ur last post is so unbelievably spiteful, prosumptous and out of date that im even finding it amusing.

“Vortex didnt ask if you wanted to protest against PRC goverment, he DARED you to do it. It obvious you dont want to protest because the fact your able to travel/study abroad is a tip off that you and/or your family are part of PRCs ruling elite. The are millions of youth in China who dream of being able to communicate with the outside world as you can. The want to learn english, study abroad and become part of movers and shakers of this world, but they cant. Because people like you who are in control are satisfied with the way things are.”

as crobato already reminded u, complaining is allowed in china. yes it is. and u wont even get funny looks for doing it. as long as it is a legitemate complaint that is. that means u can criticise the CCP for being impocotent in dealing with the SARS outbreak and being corrupt in the lower levels, but u will get in trouble if u start quoteing newsmax and help spread lies abt how us evil chinese are developing ‘post nuclear superweapons that will wipe out all none chinese’. but even then it wont be half as bad as u might expect. u’ll just get a telling off from some policeman or sth on those lines, U WONT JUST DISAPPEAR.

i will admit that the chinese government has more control over its population then the west, and i do concede that things must change for the better. but the thing is, the top PRC leaders agrre with this, and things are changing for the better, they’ve been changing for the past 20 or 30 years, u just wont see any of it.

oh, ps, i and/or my family are no way related to any ‘part of PRCs ruling elite’ nor do i even know any of them in person. i am in england because a) i can afford to study here and b) because i can get a very decent job here. and i will be looking for job opportunities inside china, and if i can find a suitable position, i will be moving back.

just that single senytence show how incredably little u know aby china. if u think that every chinese that dont hate the CCP is in some way connected to the chinese ruling elite, then ur even more far gone than i thought, it should be easy to find chinese students in just about ever city where there’s a decent Univercity, just go and chat to some of them about their views towards china and the CPP, u might be a little suprised at what u find. oh, i would tone down the anti-chinese retoric a little if u are seriously going to do that.

as for not being alloowed to traval freely, well thats the biggest bit of balony i’ve heard so far. in countries like tailand and malysia and austrlia, chinese tourists are actually more numerous then japanese tourists. we can go aboard as easily as u can, and that has been the case for well over a decade. the only reason few chinese went aboard before was because not many could afford it, but even that is changing. like it or not china is changing, and it has been for a very long time.

u claim it ppl like me that r keeping china in the past, but if u would bother to learn more abt us, then u would find it is ppl like u who are still holding onto the old image of china.

“The government of PRC is a totalitarian goverment, why should they have to be corrupt. I doubt Joseph Stalin had to steal anything either, Im sure many said he was “as clean as they come” also.”

actually its not u know. although in threoy, the president can make decisions on his own, it rarely happens, if even nowadays. the chinese leaders make decisions in much the same way a large PLC makes decisions. all the top leaders gather like in board meeting an discuss the various issues. while they might not all put their hands up and vote at the end, the advice and opions of everyone palys a big role in the decision making process.

of course they dont do this for every little thing, the various ministers have a suprisingly large degree of autonomy when dealing with their specific duties, and they always consult with expert advisors before making big decisions.

as for corruption, well for ur information, the top PRC leaders (the newest crop at least) are as clean as they come ANYWHERE. i doubt many of ur senitors will look like anything but a mop compared to some of them.

in an article in the Daily telegraphy, a jurnolist try his best to dig up dure on the new chinese president (hu jin tao) but the best he can come up with is that Hu doesnt visit his stepmother much, and that she is only living in moderate condition like most other chinese citizens.

the reporter tried to use the story of how Hu’s stepmom had to fight hard herself to stop a big property developer buying up her home and knocking it down, as a way of saying how Hu is unapreciative and ‘heartless’. but if the reporter had know much abt the inner working of chinese politics, he would have realised that this could not have been the case. being in the position he was, Hu wouldnt have needed to even gesture to someone if he want his stepmom to live in luxury. corrupt officails would have bought her a big house and paid for all her needs out of their own pockets just to curry favours with such an influantual figure. to stop himself from being draged into the vorlpool of curruption, Hu probably had to do what Zhu rong ji ( former preimer and the most popular chinese offical) did, which was to openly state that he took favours for himself and his family as sinister intentions.

corruption in china is very bad, theres no duningit, but it is only given the level of attention it is currently getting because ppl like Zhu and Hu are at the very top. and because ppl like Zhu and Hu are running things, im confident one day we will finally see the end of corruption in china, because i believe that any and all decisions made by ppl like Zhu will be for the good of the country and ppl, because believe it or not, money and wealth means little to them, and so they will not misuse their power and authority as it is how future generations will judge them that is most important to them.

“You arent left with a healthy body if you remove the cancer of corruption in China, your left with an invalid. The industrial capacity of PRC is a joke. Wachenroder says PRC has opened themselves up to captalism. Where I ask? Where are all these huge successful PRC corperations? They simply have opened themselves up to foreign corperations to take advantage of the cheap labor in China.”

if u remove a deseased musle, it will grow back; if u remove an infected organ, u can get an implant. but the ‘body’ must be given time to heal after each ‘cancer’ is removed, that’s why corruption in china wont just disappaer in a few day or months or even years, but one day, it will be gone.

“We only know what Fox tells us because if we went to China to find out for ourselves, we would be jailed.”

all i can say is ‘Ha’ to that. u have abt as much change of being arrested in china for see the truth as u have of being hit and killed by a gulf ball. unless, of course, u need to do a little ‘research’ for the CIA or taiwanese intelegence to help pay for ur trip to china.

“Taiwan (KMD) was not defeated, you did not win the civil war, China was divided into two nations, if you had won the civil war there would only be one nation. “

er, u reposted my message, but did u read it? the KMD’s armies had been smashed, both militarily and sycoliogically. in the final days of the war, they werent fighting anymore, they were just deserting and surrandering. the PLA might not have had much of a navy, but seeing how they got over 1 million men across both of china’s massive rivers in a few days, the taiwan strait wasnt going to be much of an obsticle if the US didnt park their whole pasific fleet in the middle of it. the KMD wa deafed in all the ways a government or army could be deafeated, taiwan remained under their control because the PLA could not take on the USN at that time. but make no mistake, the balance of power between the straits have always remain in the mainland’s favour.

“Thats the understatement of the century: Taiwans president doesnt want to be demoted to governer. Howabout all of Taiwans 18 million dont want to be demoted to peasants like the majority of the population of PRC.”

i’d say thats the worst bit of propaganda this century. hong kong and maco was retured to china, i dont see thier citizens being shipped off the the western parts of china to grow rice, do u? the reunification of taiwan will only adversly affect the ruling eltie of taiwan, for the vase majority, it would be very benefical. 1) they wouldnt need to spend half as much on defence 2) the millions of taiwanese businessman and their families can look forward to a much brighter future as the vast chinese market will be fully open to them 3) taiwanese shoppers will be able to enjoy lower prices as trade restrictions against the mainland are lifted… the list goes on and on.

“Plawolf- You say PRC hasnt taken over Taiwan because your peaceful. No, you havent taken over Taiwan because the cost in bloodshed would be a great embarrasment to you and would only show the world what jealose boors you are. Your hopeing to reduce by preasure Taiwans military capacity so you can quietly overtake contol of that country. Sorry, but thanks to the US, the price of fighting Taiwan will remain high.”

well, i believe it can be classed as a form of racism when u class an entire population as ‘jealose boors’. but u can call all the name u want, because it doesnt change the facts of the matter. we do no want war between the straits because a) we do not plan wars like holidays like some countries and b) those are our brothers and sisters on the other side, and we do not like killing our own. we will try our best to find PEACEFUL solution to the problem, but if US keeps testing our patents with illegal arms sale to taiwan then there will come a point when not even the CCP can keep the lid on the anger boiling down among the population itself.

Crobato,

Plawolf said in an earlier post that if it weren’t for the Communist party, or the government in place now, China would become a divided nation, much like what happened to the old USSR when all the different “states” sought independence, You on the other hand say the Chinese are very nationalisticSo which one of you are right??? Read one of Plawolf’s earlier posts on the subject.

You know what Mixtex, you’re full of crap. I ‘m not even a teenager. When a person has enough money to go around many countries in the world to do business, no, they’re not teenagers.

And what are you? You seem to be nothing more than a punk.

You are like all these others, who like to judge things from afar when in fact, you haven’t seen them, maybe can’t afford to, because you’re just a teenage punk living on your mom’s allowance.

So grow up.

The fact that they can build something, that their country has an economic growth rate of nearly 10%, has pushed itself to the top five trading nations, has managed to feed more than a billion people, perhaps that irritates you, compared to what you see around in your neighborhood.

As far as speech in China goes, they’re free to say anything except when it comes to sedition. There is a lot of criticism domestically about the Chinese government handling of the SARS case, especially in the domestic Chinese press. For the first time, the Politburo made a public apology, something that would have been inconcievable even 10 years ago.

You seem to think that Chinese students are oppressed, and things like that. How far you know the truth. Today’s young Chinese are proudly nationalistic, even spoiled, and mix that with rock and roll (Chinese TV is one third CCTV, one third MTV, one third soap drama). If Chinese government didn’t keep a lid on things, they would have been massively protesting against the US and the war. In fact they’re so nationalistic, they even scare me. So don’t talk about free speech—because you won’t like what you will be hearing. YOu need the current Chinese government, because regardless of what you think they are, they are exceedingly moderate and practical, and frankly they are the best friends the US got in China, the ones the US can count to put a lid on things—and you won’t like the alternatives.

Also the PVA did beat the KMT in land battle. They only didn’t have the navy to chase them to that island.

Originally posted by WACHENR0DER
Speaking of Voting, the only country in the world to my knowledge that people have the most power when it comes to voting is Finland, which i consider a direct democracy. Where people directly vote on issues rather than vote for some one to go vote for them.

system clarify please?

Switzerland is that way too. But it sounds like true democracy to me too. I feel very unconfortable to sigh a blank check for 5 years to a guy that I don’t know. I think that our democratic systems have huge limitations.
Terms : We are always between two elections.
Funding : The way the political party are funded is often fishy.
etc..

Well direct democracy sounds much better to me.

However is it really easy to implement in bigger countries ?

Speaking of Voting, the only country in the world to my knowledge that people have the most power when it comes to voting is Finland, which i consider a direct democracy. Where people directly vote on issues rather than vote for some one to go vote for them.

As for China, the way their voting system works is people can only vote for the lowest level, then that lowest level of party members vote for the next highest, then that next level vote for the next highest and so forth and so forth. The top guys are only voted by the next level below. I’m guessing this is the USSR way too, could anyone who knows more about the USSR’s voting system clarify please?

“Go back to China, demonstrate against the PRC and let’s see how proud of the current government in China you are.”

“why should i? u can go if u like, but why the hell should i protest against my government when it is u who have a problem with it? it is also nieve to think that protests are worth a dame, even in ur lovely little ‘democracy’. there were over a million ppl denmostrating the london over blair’s stance on iraq, still they when to war. “

Vortex didnt ask if you wanted to protest against PRC goverment, he DARED you to do it. It obvious you dont want to protest because the fact your able to travel/study abroad is a tip off that you and/or your family are part of PRCs ruling elite. The are millions of youth in China who dream of being able to communicate with the outside world as you can. The want to learn english, study abroad and become part of movers and shakers of this world, but they cant. Because people like you who are in control are satisfied with the way things are

“The fact is you can’t say anything against your government inside China. I dare you to do it. I can do it in the US…tell me about freedom again? “

“again, i dont wish to say bad things abt china because i do not wish to. there isnt much to say anyways. “

Theres alot to say, you just happen to be the one who wants to cover things up.

“the only thing i cab think of is the level of coruption in the government. yes, that’s a major problem, it could be compaired to a cancer in a person, and if it is not removed, it will caused great harm. but we are tackling corruption. u know y? its because cooruption is only common in the lower ranks of government. but the top levels are as clean as they come (in any country). personally, id prefer our kind of coorution to ur kind, where the head of state openly accepts ‘donations’ and ‘favors’ they must pay back some how. “

The government of PRC is a totalitarian goverment, why should they have to be corrupt. I doubt Joseph Stalin had to steal anything either, Im sure many said he was “as clean as they come” also.

“the corruption in china is like a cancer in the leg or arm or liver, while it is a serious problem, and seriously affcts the efficency and health of the person, he can still function fairly normally, and it can be cured fairly easily by removing the cancer or even the organ and putting in a new one. but ur kind of corruption is like a cancer in the brain, the rest of the body can be in perfect order, but it still cant work at its top efficeny. and like brain cancer, it is very diffiult to treat.”

You arent left with a healthy body if you remove the cancer of corruption in China, your left with an invalid. The industrial capacity of PRC is a joke. Wachenroder says PRC has opened themselves up to captalism. Where I ask? Where are all these huge successful PRC corperations? They simply have opened themselves up to foreign corperations to take advantage of the cheap labor in China.

“KMT in the past is no better than the CCP but that doesn’t say anything about ROC. “

“er, do u know anything abt the CCP of today except what Fox tells u? for all its flaus, it is nowhere near as repressive or burtal as the KMT of the cival war days.”

We only know what Fox tells us because if we went to China to find out for ourselves, we would be jailed.

“Mind you that CCP started from the left wing of the KMT and were part of the ROC process. As to legitimacy, is there anything signed about the defeat of the ROC? ROC doesn’t have to claim the bulk of China, but they certainly can claim Taiwan which PRC have no control what so ever over that. You’re claiming against that? What’s even more annoying to the PRC is that Taiwan is now fully democratic and that gotta hurt some of those old man’s egos…”

“well, if america hadnt poked it nose into our internal affairs then, we would have taken taiwan in 49. but even so, there doesnt need to be anything signed to mark the KMD’s defeat. them being driven from the mainland is proof enough. also, seeing how this was a cival war and not a conflict between two nations, there is no need for a surrander treaty.”

Taiwan (KMD) was not defeated, you did not win the civil war, China was divided into two nations, if you had won the civil war there would only be one nation. One which went on to exemplify asian industrial might and the other that languishes in semi-fuedalism. The fact that Taiwan doesnt claim to be a nation is a courtesy to the fact that they consider themselves chineese and someday hope to join with mainland china once they deliver themselves from their current oppression. But Taiwan is a nation in every way except by word. Taiwan has earned their prosperity and have no reason to lower themselves to your level.

“as for the KMD’s claim on taiwan, well even they never disputed that taiwan is a part of china, so when the CCP took over as the sole legitamate government of china, we also took over soverenty of taiwan. taiwan is currently not united with china because its so called ‘president’ dont want a demotion from ‘head os state’ to governer of a provence. “

Thats the understatement of the century: Taiwans president doesnt want to be demoted to governer. Howabout all of Taiwans 18 million dont want to be demoted to peasants like the majority of the population of PRC.

“as for ‘democarcy’, well what u now call ‘democracy’ is hardly what the Greeks had in mind when they invented the concept. just as communism was a faild attampt to create a sociaty where money had no meaning, ‘democracy’ is a faild attempt to creat a government that gave its ppl what they wanted. we all seen how well ur ‘democracy’ works when the american ppl didnt get the president most of them voted for. bush only won because of a legal technolity and some very questionable ballet counting.
even if the right president had been elected, the will of the government is still often forced on the ppl, even if most of them are actaully against the decision being taken.”

At least leaders can be elected in the US, unlike your PRC.

Plawolf- You say PRC hasnt taken over Taiwan because your peaceful. No, you havent taken over Taiwan because the cost in bloodshed would be a great embarrasment to you and would only show the world what jealose boors you are. Your hopeing to reduce by preasure Taiwans military capacity so you can quietly overtake contol of that country. Sorry, but thanks to the US, the price of fighting Taiwan will remain high.

crobato- For the past year youve been using the AFM forum as a place to display propaganda about PRCs aerospace prowess. Alls Ive got to say is you make me sick that a teenage punk like you who lives in the USA runs his mouth off about PRC pride while millions of youth your age in China are in silence. Its really a shame that the isolationism of PRC forces engineers of that nation to coble together eurofighter copys with mig-21 technology. Your pathetic and so is everyone in AFM for putting up with your sh!t.

Originally posted by TTP
Arthur,

You tend to twist what people say to make points unrelated to the conversation, but in any event, of course there are homeless in America and bums sleeping on the street, remember I lived in New York, I never said that the US has reached the perfect state of equality, people do fall through the cracks, However Most Americans acknowledge that there should be protections for them, but the government should not be soley responsible for their welfare.

Well, my perception of one of my debating techniques is to quote some parts of my debating partner and put it in a different context in order to help my partner understand a view other than his/hers. But since that is dependent on the ability of the partner to look beyond the scope of his/her opinion, your remark that “i tend to twist what people say to make points unrelated to the conversation” is perfectly true as well. It’s not how intend it though.

I misunderstood your previous statement on homeless people though, and while i understand your desire to make welfare dependent on non-governmental institutions (like churches or the Salvation Army or the Nation of Islam) or benign individuals, i personally think it’s ineffective. For the simple reason that in economically troubled times, when welfare is needed more than in prosperous times, there simply is less willingness for individuals to spend money for social care. Your point is taken and understood though.

As for thre military being some welfare program for the poor, you have a valid point in that the whole military-industial complex does distibute wealth in the forms of jobs, but usually its high paying technical jobs as well as “normal” type occupations. Your totally wrong about one thing, the US military is a volunter force with pretty high standards for addmittance, just this morning I spoke to a security guard at work who wanted to join the Army, but was considered over-weight, also its fairly competitive to get a job in the military because alot of people want to serve. So the Military is not some clearing house for the un-educated drop-outs or “slackers”.

Fair enough, it’s something i had little knowledge about so thanks for explaining me. The thought had occurred to me because when my country switched from a conscript to a professional army, the social, educational, physical and moral level of our military dropped dramatically, especially in the lower ranks. You could well be right that American patriottism prevents that in some way for the US military. Even though i have to say the security personell serving on and around US airbases don’t really belong to the brightest people i know 😉

Your opinions of the US are formed by what you read in your College books and what you see on your TV, try coming here and see for yourself.

Apart from reading, i also like to travel so who says i’ve never visited the US? I found Americans to be one of the most accessible and friendly people i ever met, even though i have to say that not all of that friendliness was really profound. I base my opinions about all sorts of issues quite a bit more on the experiences, meetings, impressions and conversations i had myself rather than just reading stuff or watching television. Being able to understand five-and-a-half languages IMHO also helps me to get a rather well-balanced view at that. I have also visited the Middle East, China and a spend a lot of time in the former Soviet Union. I don’t think your accusation that my opinions are based on shallow sources is true. Of course you couldn’t know, so don’t worry as i don’t feel offended.

[/b]Millions of people from around the world fight to become US citizens every year, My father was one, If it is such a bad place why do they come, and more importantly why do they STAY……Better yet , why aren’t they trying to enter your great nation! (Whatever that is, don’t know where your from) Waiting for an answer. [/B]

Thousands of people apply to become Dutch citizen every month. Although i enjoy living in a prosperous state, nationality doesn’t mean much to me since i think a person’s identity has little to do with the piece of real-estate one is born in, or what sort of label is on his/hers passport’s cover. But it sure is a fact that many people try to enter my “great nation.”

I hope that’s enough of an answer for you.

Hoping to continue this rather civilised debate and as usual in pleasant disagreement,

Originally posted by TTP
Hand 87-5

I hear this sentiment alot especially from Europeans, that Americans don’t pay alot of attention to European news, or that Americans only speak one language, and were not “worldly” Heres the reason why; We live in a large nation that for the most part generates our own news, good or bad every day, we share a border with just 2 nations, Canada and Mexico, so were not exposed to alot of different languages , and events that occur in Europe have little effect on the average American. Europeans are surrounded literally by many nations and different cultures and languages so you may be more “worldly”

Don’t get me wrong , it’s just the way it is.
However it may explain some cultural differences.

To answer the original question : no need to dislike the USA.!!!

I love them !!!

Originally posted by Vortex
You “guess”? We shouldn’t take much stock in your “guesses” then.

Don’t worry I don’t take much on yours Vortex

oh yeah, another point vortex, what right do u have to critcise china while basing ur arguemnts soley on Fox and CNN reports?

have u even been to the country? have u actaully been arrested for protesting, as u have us believe is the fate of all who dares to speak in china.

Vortex:

“Go back to China, demonstrate against the PRC and let’s see how proud of the current government in China you are.”

why should i? u can go if u like, but why the hell should i protest against my government when it is u who have a problem with it? it is also nieve to think that protests are worth a dame, even in ur lovely little ‘democracy’. there were over a million ppl denmostrating the london over blair’s stance on iraq, still they when to war.

“Mao lied to his people and they basically got used and abused. “

so? like ur presidents never lie. and whats this abt ‘used and abused’? how did he actaully ‘use and abuse’ the whole population exactly? if u were refering to the great leap forward, well although it is true that these failed attamps caused great hardship, it was only a misguided attampt to make the lives of individual chinese better. the goal was never to harm the population, so how could this be classed as ‘used and abused’?

“The fact is you can’t say anything against your government inside China. I dare you to do it. I can do it in the US…tell me about freedom again? “

again, i dont wish to say bad things abt china because i do not wish to. there isnt much to say anyways.

the only thing i cab think of is the level of coruption in the government. yes, that’s a major problem, it could be compaired to a cancer in a person, and if it is not removed, it will caused great harm. but we are tackling corruption. u know y? its because cooruption is only common in the lower ranks of government. but the top levels are as clean as they come (in any country). personally, id prefer our kind of coorution to ur kind, where the head of state openly accepts ‘donations’ and ‘favors’ they must pay back some how.

the corruption in china is like a cancer in the leg or arm or liver, while it is a serious problem, and seriously affcts the efficency and health of the person, he can still function fairly normally, and it can be cured fairly easily by removing the cancer or even the organ and putting in a new one. but ur kind of corruption is like a cancer in the brain, the rest of the body can be in perfect order, but it still cant work at its top efficeny. and like brain cancer, it is very diffiult to treat.

“KMT in the past is no better than the CCP but that doesn’t say anything about ROC. “

er, do u know anything abt the CCP of today except what Fox tells u? for all its flaus, it is nowhere near as repressive or burtal as the KMT of the cival war days.

“Mind you that CCP started from the left wing of the KMT and were part of the ROC process. As to legitimacy, is there anything signed about the defeat of the ROC? ROC doesn’t have to claim the bulk of China, but they certainly can claim Taiwan which PRC have no control what so ever over that. You’re claiming against that? What’s even more annoying to the PRC is that Taiwan is now fully democratic and that gotta hurt some of those old man’s egos…”

well, if america hadnt poked it nose into our internal affairs then, we would have taken taiwan in 49. but even so, there doesnt need to be anything signed to mark the KMD’s defeat. them being driven from the mainland is proof enough. also, seeing how this was a cival war and not a conflict between two nations, there is no need for a surrander treaty.

as for the KMD’s claim on taiwan, well even they never disputed that taiwan is a part of china, so when the CCP took over as the sole legitamate government of china, we also took over soverenty of taiwan. taiwan is currently not united with china because its so called ‘president’ dont want a demotion from ‘head os state’ to governer of a provence.

as for ‘democarcy’, well what u now call ‘democracy’ is hardly what the Greeks had in mind when they invented the concept. just as communism was a faild attampt to create a sociaty where money had no meaning, ‘democracy’ is a faild attempt to creat a government that gave its ppl what they wanted. we all seen how well ur ‘democracy’ works when the american ppl didnt get the president most of them voted for. bush only won because of a legal technolity and some very questionable ballet counting.

even if the right president had been elected, the will of the government is still often forced on the ppl, even if most of them are actaully against the decision being taken.

Originally posted by Hand87_5
TTP ,

I guess this problem is maybe even worst in the US since the media don’t speak a lot about international news.

However I do agree with most of your points.

You “guess”? We shouldn’t take much stock in your “guesses” then.

Hand 87-5

I hear this sentiment alot especially from Europeans, that Americans don’t pay alot of attention to European news, or that Americans only speak one language, and were not “worldly” Heres the reason why; We live in a large nation that for the most part generates our own news, good or bad every day, we share a border with just 2 nations, Canada and Mexico, so were not exposed to alot of different languages , and events that occur in Europe have little effect on the average American. Europeans are surrounded literally by many nations and different cultures and languages so you may be more “worldly”

Originally posted by TTP
Arthur,

Your opinions of the US are formed by what you read in your College books and what you see on your TV, try coming here and see for yourself.

TTP ,

I guess this problem is maybe even worst in the US since the media don’t speak a lot about international news.

However I do agree with most of your points.

Arthur,

One more point, Reagan is considered one of the greatest Presidents, but not because spending increased under his term, because he stood up to the Soviets, He realized that they couldn’t compete equally on a “spending “basis with the US and this eventually helped the USSR to collapse. If budgets under Reagan increased it was the military side, He cut social programs initially, and cut taxes alot! this fueled alot of the growth we experienced in the 1990’s as well as the “peace dividend” which allowed us to cut our military after the Soviets were no longer a threat. Keep on reading your books, your a smart guy, but you tend to find one small point that supports your argument, and you extrapolate large conclusions from them, irregardless of the facts.
Good Day
TTP
By the way, in the US a budget is deemed to be cut if the amount of a planned increase is lessened, So if Congress plans on increasing a program by 7% it is considered a cut if it only is increased by 3%, doesn’t make sence but thats government for you!

Arthur,

You tend to twist what people say to make points unrelated to the conversation, but in any event, of course there are homeless in America and bums sleeping on the street, remember I lived in New York, I never said that the US has reached the perfect state of equality, people do fall through the cracks, However Most Americans acknowledge that there should be protections for them, but the government should not be soley responsible for their welfare. As for thre military being some welfare program for the poor, you have a valid point in that the whole military-industial complex does distibute wealth in the forms of jobs, but usually its high paying technical jobs as well as “normal” type occupations. Your totally wrong about one thing, the US military is a volunter force with pretty high standards for addmittance, just this morning I spoke to a security guard at work who wanted to join the Army, but was considered over-weight, also its fairly competitive to get a job in the military because alot of people want to serve. So the Military is not some clearing house for the un-educated drop-outs or “slackers”. Your opinions of the US are formed by what you read in your College books and what you see on your TV, try coming here and see for yourself. Millions of people from around the world fight to become US citizens every year, My father was one, If it is such a bad place why do they come, and more importantly why do they STAY……Better yet , why aren’t they trying to enter your great nation! (Whatever that is, don’t know where your from) Waiting for an answer.