Does anyone have information on Aero Commanders using Skis on snow/Ice?

A Danish gentleman has added to a report I submitted on ASN. I only have an ip address…how can I contact this man?
http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=15795

Well Ladies and Gents…Still finding little snippets of info…Shame some people will not discuss what they know but that’s their choice. One thing for sure at sometime there was something on board N6313U that had value……..but what it was and who retrieved it is never going to be discovered……I feel my quest is coming to an end….Unless someone comes up with more……………

I am sure you have seen it, but I didn’t see a mention of the ASN report in your searches.:)

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=15795

Thanks for the update. It is good to see how the research is progressing.

Moggy

Still looking……….

I am still researching the crashes and thought I would ask again for any information about the aircraft, companies and events that may help me with my research.
I would like to put a timescale to the various flights particularly N6362U’s flight from Biggin Hill to Greenland in August 1967. I know the flight was via Prestwick and Reykjavik but don’t have times. Any suggestions?

I only have one photo of N6313U intact prior to it’s ferry flight. The others are all after its forced landing on the icecap and although they are amazing I would like to find any photos of N6313U.

Please any information on the aircraft companies and events would be very much appreciated. Any suggestions of sources as well please.

My email if required is [email]kevin.woolterton@btinternet.com[/email]

Thank you, Kevin Woolterton.

Update…………..

Well folks, still looking and searching.
Have located a gentleman who was with the USAF party that rescued Mr Grossoehme following his forced landing on the the ice in February 1967. Now have amazing photos of the Aero Commander on the ice, plus the rescuers somewhat stuck C130D.
Found a lot of answers but also raised a lot of questions.
Still trying to identify the ski equiped aircraft that it seems was to ferry men and equipement from Kulusuk to the Aero Commander on the ice.
Thanks again to all who have helped so far, and should anyone find any little snippet re any of the crashes or rescues please get in contact.
Thank you, Kevin Woolterton.

Update.

I am still researching and amazingly still finding information.
Still a lot of pieces missing in this jigsaw but the picture is much clearer!
Thanks again to those who have assisted in past, and please contact me if anyone finds or recalls anything related to the crash,
Regards Kevin Woolterton

Update. Greenland crash.

Ladies and Gents…………
I continue to research! Some great finds, located so many people with recollections, information and photos of the aircraft involved and the crashes.
The first aircraft was N6313U which was put down on the Greenland ice cap by American pilot George W Grossoehme on 27/2/1967 having run low on fuel in extreme weather conditions. The second was N6362U which crashed during searching for N6313U on 14/8/1967. N6313U was eventually flown off the ice but crashed shortly afterwards killing the Canadian pilot Dennis Bannock.
If anyone out there has any photos or information they think could assist in completing the story please contact me.
During my research I have found even the smallest piece of information has helped. Even if it is something already found, if it is confirmed by another it all helps.
My intention is to record as accurate as possible account of the crashes and the salvage attempts.
Thank you to all the kind and helpful people who have assisted already.
Kevin Woolterton.

Update!

Ladies and Gents…
I continue to research…..
The skis were manufactured by a company in the UK.
According to Canadian archives Crown Aviation was most likely to be set up if the final salvage of N6313U was successful.
The Crown Aviation team were David Mclennon from Montreal, (an expert in aircraft salvage), Garry Libbos from Toronto, Roland Sparling of Montreal and Dennis Bannock the pilot from Toronto.
They managed to get the aircraft out of the ice and Dennis Bannock took off.
He did not arrive at his intended destination, an air search found the crash site and a snowmobile was sent out but returned not able to locate the pilot.
The US closed the case and the Danish authorities did not carry out an investigation.
I dont suppose anyone knows anything else about this flight or the team,but stranger things have happened during my research!
My latest, possibly wild goose chase is I now know that my dad didnt take just one photo after his crash, but a series. The last time I can establish them being seen was 20 plus years ago at Biggin Hill, but the trail has gone cold!
Anyone else out there ever seen them? I live in hope.
Again thanks to all who have helped me during my reseach.
Kevin

Well Folks, my theory was pretty good.
I have now discovered the party were to rendezvous with a ski equiped aircraft from Scandinavia. The Commander flight was just for reconnaissance and transporting the team and their equipement.
Thanks to all who have helped.
I will be back to ask more questions!!!!!! 🙂

Kevin.

I am told that Fernandez skis (French company, out of business) were
certified on the Britain Norman Islander, Bristol Aircraft certified skis on the
Twin Otter. It is possible that someone got a field approval to use these, but it seems no skis were approved for the Aero Commander… (Someone please let me know if this is incorrect!!!!!)
Some skis must have been used by the Canadian pilot Denis Bannock who managed to take off in N6313U but crashed shortly after on 15/2/1968. It is recorded that Mr Bannock was killed, but no official record of the crash appears.
Mr Bannock was supported by Crown Aviation Corp Limited of Canada.
Anyone know of Crown Aviation??

Well folks, cant find anyone who has seen or heard of Skis on a Commander.
Perhaps the party were to charter a Helicopter? Who knows…..

For those that care about these things, here is a better shot of SOBSTORY. The other shot demonstrates the White-Out effect nicely. Taken from FL160 over the icecap heading towards Kulusuk and Reykjavik. To fully appreciate it, you have to realise that in addition to the icecap and a few totally white mountains, much of what you are looking at is stratus cloud. The three blend completely and the horizon comes and goes from minute to minute.

MSA across the snowcap is remarkably high (as high a FL160 depending on route). That exceeds the abilities of many non-turbo-charged pistons, and in any event requires oxygen if the aircraft is unpressurised. Partly because of this, and partly because of the inevitable low freezing levels and the risk of airframe icing, many are tempted to make the crossing below MSA.

White-out, spatial disorientation and even plain old-fashioned CFIT await those who follow that plan.

For those with the endurance, Reykjavik-Narsarsuaq-Goose Bay offers a much more limited exposure to the ice-cap and better low-level options if the weather goes to pieces on you. Sadly, AVGAS availability at Narsarsuaq has become a repeated issue over the last 18 months or so, making more northerly crossings a more frequent occurance.

The most likely cause of the crash was “white out”. As a boy dad described it to me as flying in an igloo!
I looked at some library pictures last night and thought SOBSTORY was DYE 2. I will have to look again later.
Kevin

I think that SOBSTORY is actually DYE 2, but that your co-ordinates (as posted in post 7) are incorrect.

SOBSTORY is a non-ICAO-standard IFR waypoint on the icecap (ICAO waypoints normally comprising 5 letters). I can only imagine that the SOBSTORY got its name from some sort of USAF joke around the station. It is not difficult to imagine the term used in the context of a God-forsaken outpost like that.

The full IFR icecap routing, should you be interested is normally:

ASVID-SOBSTORY-ASTAN-DA

You can look those up on the appropriate Jepp Chart and you’ll see the sort of near great-circle route that they describe.

It is an odd route to fly, particularly on a clear day, where the high-level cirrus merges with the snowcap to make terrain and cloud impossible to separate. More than a few aircraft have simply flown into the ground in level flight crossing that way.

Must be DYE 3 then?? I have position of that as 65.11N 43.49W. about 8600 feet above sea level, 100 miles east of DYE 2.
Does vary on different documents!! Hey they even moved one once!!!
I believe there are 4 DYE posts on Greenland so it has to be one of them!
Not heard it called Sobstory before. Any idea how it was given that name?
Kevin.
Later that day……..
DOH! penny just dropped! SOBSTORY is the name given to the old DYE3 site on navigation aids.
Kevin.

Nope, in the case of the photo, this is SOBSTORY, the position for which is normally given as 65 10 55N 043 49 44W.

SOBSTORY is on the mandatory route between Nuuq on the West Coast and Kulusuk on the East.

Is the photo of SOBSTORY actually DYE 2, location 66 29 30N 46 18 19W??
When my Dad and his colleague Bernard Mockett were rescued, the C-130D that picked them up had to land at DYE 3 to be refuelled as they were running on fumes!!
C-130D’s were designed to land on packed snow/ice runways. Landing on “open snow” was regarded as dangerous due to hidden hazards such as crevasses.
Although my dad told me that they were to jack the aircraft up and put it on skis for take off, I am not sure that landing on the ice was an option in the Commander.
One recollection I have was that cocoa was part of the kit taken for the salvage attempt. Not to drink, but to mark out the runway for take off, having checked for obstructions and crevasses. I dont recall skis for the aircraft. Perhaps they were to be picked up in Greenland??
Kevin.

It can never be too early 😉

Moggy