Dornier 17P Dorset 27/8/40

forgive me…..i will hang my head in shame.

It is highly likely that Dornier sub contracted/split up sub assemblies production too and built some items in certain factories (i.e. port wing here, starboard wing there) and brought them to a final place for assembly.

If you had read my thread 21 it tells you everything about Dornier 17 production lines! The RLM (REICHLUFTFARHTMINISTERUMS) had complete control of ordering of and production of all aircraft. Thus any design dept. had to know after the prototype and early production they may end up as Dornier did with the Do17 making parts for other firms to assemble.

Back to the original thread (amazing I know!)….
It is highly likely that Dornier sub contracted/split up sub assemblies production too and built some items in certain factories (i.e. port wing here, starboard wing there) and brought them to a final place for assembly.
I have a few 50MU items

…the mystery Do-17 piece…..unsure if its even dornier…

I am having doubts.

I have a very similar section of cylinder head, that I bought as a Do17 relic, about which I have my doubts also.

Notice on your section (as on mine) that the push-rod end of the rocker is on the same side of the engine as the inlet / exhaust port; on the Bramo 323 the push-rods are on the front of the engine but the inlet / exhaust ports are on the rear.

Hi
Maybe I am getting confused
I thought the do-17P had bmw 132 engines, which were a modified P&W hornet engine,and it was the do-17Z with the bramo 323 engines.
cheers
jerry

Not American copies!

Does anyone know which P & W engine was copied by the germans .. as the Dornier had the Bramo 323 Fanfir ??

Siemens owned the aero- engine firm that became Bramo in 1936, the maker of the Bramo 323 Fafnir which had been developed in house with no input from the Americans, just that all radials tend to look the same:D Siemens produced small capacity aero-engines in the twenties and started to assemble Bristol Jupiter engines (131), then using this experience to develop their own engines of 600-760 hp. SAM 322B was the final version built. 2000 for the early Luftwaffe. The SAM 23 the next development became the Bramo 323 Fafnir which powered many German aircraft (5500 built). In Oct. 1938 the first run of the Bramo 329 twin Fafnir achieved its design spec. of 2000 hp! At last Germany had a very powerful radial engine to power its combat aircraft.The factory by then was developing gas turbine engines! The RLM was not interested in its advanced projects and designs but BMW was and took it over in June 1939 stopped the twin Fafnir final development and developed the gas turbines as the mass produced BMW 003 JET ENGINE!

Hmm, Well I never knew that Jerry ??

could be. ??

Its would seem odd being it was dug in the 1970s if it could be any other than BOB .. as at that time, that is what groups were searching and digging for at quite a rate. I never really heard of early USAAF digs.. so perhaps you have answered my question ??:D

its just my own doubts that was all, i wouldnt want to say it was something it is not.. but the wealdon group done a big share of BOB digs in there day from what i have read in the then a know books 🙂

Does anyone know which P & W engine was copied by the germans .. as the Dornier had the Bramo 323 Fanfir ??

HI
I could be wrong…….
…. but I thought the dornier’s engine were just a german produced pratt & whitney engine under licence.
cheers
Jerry

Heres the Pics Andy

Heres the pics of the Messershmitt engine piece, ex the late Bill Hamblen

and the mystery Do-17 piece ,, which now i am at a loss,as i am unsure if its even dornier, and wonder if its P&W R2800 ????

all i do know, is what i have stated about the above , as for the dornier piece..
I am having doubts

one thing for sure , they are both from Bills collection, and the Wealdon Group, and dug in the early 70s .

Andy… anyone can you Identify ??:confused:

Thanks Super Sioux, thats really interesting, I have to say though that I was given a whole selection of parts, taken at the time, from alsorts of aircraft.
however, all the items on the board did come together in one small box with the writing on :- Dornier from Display at Bournmouth 1940.

So I would hope that all the bits were from that one aircraft.

Jules

On having a closer look at the excellent display I observed that the Werke plates were from two different factories! The Dornier Friedrichshafen one was Werke No. 49R. Do. 17P Assembled 1938. The other Werke plate was Siebel Halle Batch No.122003, Werke No. -96- Do.17P. Siebel produced 223 Do 17 aircraft(W.Nr 5001-) from 1937 (DO17F) and in 1940 went into Ju88 production.
Was this aircraft a combination of the two? Say after both had suffered such damage that only one could aircraft could fly with parts from the other!:confused:

After rechecking my source ‘GERMAN AIRCRAFT INDUSTRY AND PRODUCTION 1933-1945’ further info. has come to light! Dornier only built a total of 8 Do 17P in 1938 and Werke no. 49R was not in the batch. All other Do17P production was at other firms including Henschel 100. Blohm und Voss 149 built Jan.1938-Sept.1939. Siebel 73 built 1938- Mar. 1939. Werke No. 96 was the 46th Do 17 P built by them. I now think that no. 96 had an accident which was repaired at Dornier hence the Werke No.49R was attached. There is very little concerning repair practice in the book and I dont know the wartime British procedure for marking aircraft after repair which could have been different.

Two Werke Numbers?

On having a closer look at the excellent display I observed that the Werke plates were from two different factories! The Dornier Friedrichshafen one was Werke No. 49R. Do. 17P Assembled 1938. The other Werke plate was Siebel Halle Batch No.122003, Werke No. -96- Do.17P. Siebel produced 223 Do 17 aircraft(W.Nr 5001-) from 1937 (DO17F) and in 1940 went into Ju88 production.
Was this aircraft a combination of the two? Say after both had suffered such damage that only one could aircraft could fly with parts from the other!:confused:

The Engine Part, from the 109, well, its the cylinder head, smashed complete with 8 valves in situ, and one of them bent backwards, the remains of two rockers are still in situ as well, nice big lump, Its never been cleaned, and i will be getting it properly cleaned, I hope to “John Manning’s” standard of polishing, ..

the Do17 Cylinder head is just the top half, and one side, shattered with the half hanging on the valve, the rocker, and valve in perfect order and still in situ,

both of the above , i will polish up, and have proper display stands made up.

Would you Have any Photo’s of the Me109 WNr1134, 4./JG3 ??.. or of the dig ??..
I will PM you Andy 🙂

I did look in the BOB then a now, and wondered if it was from the Do17 shot down 20th Aug 1940 there abouts,???..it said wealdon group had “Shattered engine Pieces” and i wondered if this was “One” of those pieces ???.
i believe dug 1970 – 73 .. I cant remember, as I am at work at mo, so i cant check the book.. just wish i could sort my computer out and get a photo of it on here for your viewing .

I am so chuffed to be able to have these pieces, and wish i could find more, but like you say Andy, 3 sheets to the wind 🙁 .. but all the same, i consider myself lucky just to have these two cracking pieces 😀

Mostly dispersed to the four winds…much like most of the other stuff recovered in the 1960s and 1970s.

I suspect the 109 engine part is WNr 1134, 4./JG3, shot down by Sqn Ldr P Townsend at New Lodge Farm, Hooe, East Sussex, around 7pm on 29 August 1940. In fact….I pretty much know it must be!!

Many Thanks Andy. I would be pleased to send you some pics of those pieces as soon as i can post them on here,.. (computer problems at mo 🙁 )

I would very much be interested if you could positively identify the bits,

I noticed the battle of britain book Then and now, was full of Wealdon recoveries, .. What ever happened to the rest of the wealdon collection ?

:confused: . or many of the other recovery groups from the early days ?

pm sent old chap!

Would that be traceable Andy?

Give me the number…..;)

That is, the stamped-in number on the back, not the cast numbers. (Sometimes the number is on the front outside rim.)

It may take a while, but it MIGHT be traceable. Some have been.

Hi
I recall that the dornier was actually on a recce of St Eval airfield & area.
As the airfield had been bombed at 2100hrs on the 26th and 0410 hrs on the 27th.
I seem to recall from research, the a/c was chased from there,before being shot down.

I think the local paper archives has these photos also.

cheers
Jerry

Would that be traceable Andy?

No number on the back of the badge?