Douglas Bader/Colin Hodgkinson

I remember seeing ‘Very Important Person’ but it was years ago.

I looked it up and was surprised that the method of escape in the film was to impersonate the members of an inspection party from the Swiss Red Cross and to ‘simply’ walk out while the real Red Cross were still in the camp.

This (of course) was actually tried for real by POW’s during the war.

WA$.

POWs also tried to walk out dressed as guards: as these two did. Scene is Stalag Luft 1, January 15, 1942. Man at far left was Sqdn Ldr Dudley Craig, former CO of 607 Sqdn, man second from right was Sqdn Ldr W.H.N. (Willie) Turner, former (B) Flight Commander 51 Squadron, other two were real thing. They were caught at the gate.

Best Wishes.
Robert.

Clive Dunn was captured due to the incompetence of his officers who lost their maps, among other things! He was forced with his fellow prisoners in one camp to cut a road out of shere rock face with just pick-axes and shovels. At another, not even a camp but two rooms on the third floor of a Barber Shop in Austria, they were forced to march naked through the town. He spent most of his war in those two rooms. He was therefore very happy in 1968 to be given a part where he was allowed to take the mickey out of the Germans every week!

It’s been a while since I read his book, but I think he was a ghost for a while but he then became a POW again when he heard a concert troop had started up in the camp. Being a professional actor he thought it a better way to live entertaining his fellow prisoners, than hiding for a living. He was Robert Dunn back then. He became Clive Dunn just after the war when he registered with Equity, as his father Robert snr was also an entertainer, so he took his um’s maiden name. She was Connie Clive. So if anyone cares to research his POW days, look for Robert Dunn. It’s all detailed in his excellent book anyway, if you can find it. It’s very rare.

You couldn’t make it up!

I remember seeing ‘Very Important Person’ but it was years ago.

I looked it up and was surprised that the method of escape in the film was to impersonate the members of an inspection party from the Swiss Red Cross and to ‘simply’ walk out while the real Red Cross were still in the camp.

This (of course) was actually tried for real by POW’s during the war.

WA$.

Clive Dunn of Dad’s Army fame was a POW. Blimey, never knew that!

And that’s a new escape tactic to me also.

The reverse of this is of course the tactic of hiding POW’s in the camp and letting the Germans think they had escaped. A search would be mounted (inside and outside of the wire) and of course if they weren’t found (inside) it was assumed they had escaped and got away.

Later when things had cooled down other POW’s could escape and their place at roll-call (appell) was taken by the POW’s who had been hiding (but who were in no condition to escape themselves).

If the real escaping POW’s could get out without leaving any evidence their chances of getting away were greatly increased as nobody would be looking for them.

Simple when you know how but a work of genius nevertheless!

I think the POW’s called them ‘ghosts’.

WA$.

Being a “Ghost” seems an easy way of escaping, but was in fact hard. Jack Best looked after a number of ghosts in Colditz trying to keep their spirits and health up – as you can imagine, stuck in a cupboard or cellar for possibly weeks while having to remain undetected could be very mentally challenging.

Oddly enough I watched a rather risible 1960s film yesterday afternoon called “Very Important Person” with James Robertson Justice, Eric Sykes, Leslie Phillips and all the usual Brit film stalwarts that was based on the premise of escaping by a being a “ghost”. Quite amusing, but a very lightweight treatment with all the usual 1950s British war film cliches in place. But worth it for the usual ursine James Robertson Justice performance.

Clive Dunn was a POW, captured in Greece in 1941 and mainly held in work camps in Austria. He was liberated in 1945 after being force marched into Germany from Austria.

I have read similar accounts of prisoners losing identities. In Clive Dunn’s book ‘Permission To Speak’ he wrote about how, while a prisoner for four years, in certain camps the prisoners working in the admin office would remove files and hide them. Those prisoners then ‘never existed’. At roll call they hid under the buildings. At other times they worked on tunnels and the Germans never suspected a thing as all the prisoners they knew of were present all the time.

Clive Dunn of Dad’s Army fame was a POW. Blimey, never knew that!

And that’s a new escape tactic to me also.

The reverse of this is of course the tactic of hiding POW’s in the camp and letting the Germans think they had escaped. A search would be mounted (inside and outside of the wire) and of course if they weren’t found (inside) it was assumed they had escaped and got away.

Later when things had cooled down other POW’s could escape and their place at roll-call (appell) was taken by the POW’s who had been hiding (but who were in no condition to escape themselves).

If the real escaping POW’s could get out without leaving any evidence their chances of getting away were greatly increased as nobody would be looking for them.

Simple when you know how but a work of genius nevertheless!

I think the POW’s called them ‘ghosts’.

WA$.

What does an attack of Micky Wynn look like?

(Sorry.)

🙂

Similar escapes were also contrived from Colditz by Harry Elliott, who faked ulcers and Micky Wynn.

What does an attack of Micky Wynn look like?

(Sorry.)

Richard Pape who wrote ‘Boldness Be My Friend’ escaped via repatriation. I read this years ago so it’s a little vague now, but…

Similar escapes were also contrived from Colditz by Harry Elliott, who faked ulcers and Micky Wynn.

I think the idea was that officers were guarded more closely than other ranks as they were more likely to escape. In return I think conditions were probably better for officers.

Officers were exempted from working, while other ranks were used as labour by their captors. Immediate results were that (for instance) Sergeant aircrew had less time and energy to prepare to escape, and less resources, but (theoretically) had more opportunity. Most ‘great escape’ stories feature officers, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is literary pretensions.

Bader seems to be the subject of eternal debate on this forum, but I believe it is important to recognize, and impossible to underestimate, the contributions he made to amputees everywhere. Whether or not he did everything claimed is unimportant; what is important is that he did much, much more than anyone ever expected.

Hear hear DB2, well said – the “Douglas Bader Enigma” debate is and will always be irrellavent to history. The real story of Bader’s courage and strength to carry on, and to inspire others to do so too is what needs to be remembered.

I admire you for your courage to follow his lead. It is great to hear you returned to flying after your terrible accident.

Creaking Door, I have read similar accounts of prisoners losing identities. In Clive Dunn’s book ‘Permission To Speak’ he wrote about how, while a prisoner for four years, in certain camps the prisoners working in the admin office would remove files and hide them. Those prisoners then ‘never existed’. At roll call they hid under the buildings. At other times they worked on tunnels and the Germans never suspected a thing as all the prisoners they knew of were present all the time.

I have a huge amount of admiration for those involved in the escape commity systems in POW camps. Truly ingenious people.

Would Douglas Bader or ‘Hoppy’ Hodgkinson have either needed or requested assistance with the fitting of their legs on the occasion in question?

Unfortunately I am rather well-qualified to answer this question, as in 2004 I crashed very hard while practicing for an aerobatics competition, and ultimately received exactly identical leg amputations to Bader (left just below knee, right just above).

So the answer is NO, even with the primitive prosthetics of the day, neither Bader nor Hoppy would have required any assistance in donning their legs. Today, with modern technology, I can don both legs, in the dark, in less than two minutes.

Bader seems to be the subject of eternal debate on this forum, but I believe it is important to recognize, and impossible to underestimate, the contributions he made to amputees everywhere. Whether or not he did everything claimed is unimportant; what is important is that he did much, much more than anyone ever expected.

He was without a doubt my primary inspiration during my recovery; in fact because of him I refused to walk with “sticks”, and flew again 3 weeks after first standing up on my “new” legs. In fact, the first story of “courage” told to the flood of amputees returning from Iraq is that of Bader.

What about POW’s ‘swapping’ identities with other prisoners?

I can’t remember the specific case but a pilot swapped identities with a private from the infantry.

I think the idea was that officers were guarded more closely than other ranks as they were more likely to escape. In return I think conditions were probably better for officers.

WA$.

Richard Pape who wrote ‘Boldness Be My Friend’ escaped via repatriation. I read this years ago so it’s a little vague now, but…

After many escape attempts were foiled he hatched an amazing plan that worked. Another prisoner developed a bad disease, I can’t recall what but I think terminal. It was detected in urine. the ill prisoner was to be repatriated, and the Red Cross were checking the other prisoners in case they too had contracted it.

Pape worked in the kitchen of the prison so he nicked two corks and a piece of rubber hosepipe, and fashioned a lifelike fake willy. He got the sick man to pee into it, and when time came for a Red Cross medical instead of giving his own urine sample he flopped out his rubber hose container with the ill urine contained inside. He discreetly pulled a pin out that was blocking a small hole, and in full view of the guards and doctors, “peed” into the cup.

Of course the results were positive, so they sent him back to the UK!!

One of the most ingenius escapes ever I reckon. No risk at all involved in terms of jumping fences and digging tunnels.

Repatriation of POW had been developed on a bilateral basis in the 1914-18 war, but during the second war progress was slow to begin with. Negotiations in 1941 resulted in nearly 1200 British POW passed for repatriation but in the event the Germans broke off the negotiations and none of these prisoners left German custody at that time.

It took until 1943 to get repatriation of POW in German hands under way, though some in Italian captivity had been released in 1942. Eventually nearly 10,000 British US and Commonwealth POW were repatriated on medical grounds from German prisons between October 1943 and January 1945.

Were prisioner exchanges common? I haven’t heard much about them.

I’ve just been re-reading ‘The Great Escape’ by Paul Brickhill.

Shortly after the escape (and when the POW’s have found out that fifty of the escapees have been shot) some POW’s are repatriated. These included Group Captain H.M.Massey, the Senior British Officer. These prisoners had been badly wounded when they were shot down.

I think this is how the British authorities found out about the shooting of the fifty POW’s.

WA$.

There was the case of a few of the Great Escapers, including Wings Day and Jimmy James being held with an intention to exchange them or at least use them as a bargaining tool towards the end ot the war. Nothing came of it and they were finally released/liberated close to the Italian border just prior to the end of hostilities.

Were prisioner exchanges common? I haven’t heard much about them.

Me neither. There were a fair amount, I think facilitated by the Red Cross, via neutral countries, as part of the Geneva Convention (and perhaps the Hague Convention?) Often seriously injured or disabled (or insane) prisoners were swapped – maybe some VIPs?

That’s about double what I know.

Were prisioner exchanges common? I haven’t heard much about them.

Do you think there’s any chance at all that we might just let this deluded old gentleman live out his days in peace? None of us had ever heard any of his fabrications till the arrival of the internet. He believes what he believes, we all believe what we believe. Just let him rest and he will go away. He thrives on confrontation and attention so stop giving it to him.

There are delusional souls out there who believe the Holocaust didn’t happen. In the grand scheme of things, is one old man believing that he strapped Douglas Baders legs on in a hotel in Liverpool anything to cause such a kerfuffle about? One day Mr. Williams will pass on, as will we all, and his story will pass with him.

Let it go.

Regards,

kev35

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