Douglas Bader's pre war MG sports car up for auction

There’ll be 36 of these soon…. :dev2:

It didn’t sell.

Seems someone else isn’t sure of it’s provenance

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22725/lot/352/

Saleroom notices
Please note that we have been informed of another claimant to this car’s identity. This claim is disputed by the current owner. A metallurgist report commissioned by the owner is available for inspection. Accordingly, Bonhams are unable to categorically verify this Lot’s catalogued provenance

It will be interesting to hear what it goes for.

Dear Sirs,
I hugely appreciate the responses received. Having made the necessary enquiries and receiving some information of concern as a result I have firmly decided that I will avoid bidding on this vehicle, although I will be attending the auction in an observing capacity. Thank you for your assistance and the very best to you all!

Hello everyone,

I am attending Goodwood again this year and I am interested in this truly historic MG and I am seriously considering entering into the bidding. During my research I found this thread, so thank you very much for the information. However, other web research that I have undertaken on this car in the last few days has left me decidedly confused.

The MG “T” Register, a branch of the respected MG Car Club, has a register of cars available on their website and the Bader car (GPC 671) is listed on their website as SCRAPPED.

A Google search for “Douglas Bader MG TA” also brings up another page for the Bader car from an “MG T-Types database” website. That page also gives further information that the Bader car was written off by a previous owner in an accident and the chassis was subsequently “sawn up and scrapped”.

If Club experts like the MG Car Club are saying the Bader car was written off and scrapped by a previous owner then what exactly is the car being sold at auction? I am eager to bid but at the sort of price estimated one needs to be sure that one has the genuine article.

Can anyone assist with more information?

The T-register is the source of the information as to it’s original owner so they do know about it. It’s more likely the record hasn’t been updated to show the car is back on the road. I would suggest an e-mail or a phone call directly to the T-register. The historian or DVLA rep may be able to help. Contact details are here

http://www.tregister.org/recall_committee.php

Also, have a look at the T-Register news July 2014 edition in which my father (the editor) wrote about this car attending a show as mentioned in my earlier post. I should point out his information is nothing more than a brief chat with the owner/restorer and not a full study into the history of his car.

http://www.tregister.org/trn_archive.php

The car certainly isn’t 100% original as it was bought as a chassis and a box of parts. Exactly how many of those were used for the rebuild or where they came from originally is open to conjecture. Hence my scepticism of it’s estimated value earlier. I would however say if the chassis number matches the production records and the engine number matches that given on the makers plate then that is probably as close to confirmation of it’s originality as anyone will get. The rest is down to the owners interpretation of a restoration. Potentially (and I’m not saying this is the case here) the wooden tub which is often subject to rot and body panels could be considered spare parts like any other item bolted to the chassis.

I’d buy someone’s unfinished restoration project for my own pleasure, not because someone famous owned it.

‘Scrapped’ in a classic car sense doesn’t mean a car bearing that information will never be seen again!

Sounds like Triggers Broom.

Yes, probably more by association of Baders name than actual physical presence.

Sounds like Triggers Broom.

Interestingly the registration GPC671 draws a blank on the DVLA registration check

https://www.vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk

The chassis number on the TA series was stamped into the near side (left hand) front dumb iron on the chassis, slightly above and behind the front spring mounting. Even on a restored chassis this should be discernible. It would be worth checking this out. This number is also replicated on the makers plate affixed to the front of the under bonnet toolbox on the left side facing forward.

I do note that the photos of this car show it with side laced wire wheels (19″); 1938 models (post chassis 1770) were fitted with 19″ centre laced wheels. A picky point, but……..

There are very few cars of this age that have not been subject to some form of restoration. How original is original? No matter how sympathically this car has been restored, the reality is that Bader’s bum did not grace the (new?) seats and, like so many Spitfires (Supermarine), I would suggest that much of its provenance is based on the chassis/makers plate.

It may well make big numbers, but the pleasure of owning one is in using it. I shall watch with interest.

You have to wonder whether someone in the past put a new body on the chassis, and a new chassis on the body. That sounds unlikely perhaps, but I believe there are several Jaguar D-Types out there that share their identity with another car. In those cases, one was rebuilt from the spaceframe chassis, and one from the monocoque space frame.
(this is my understanding of what happened. I am not an expert!)

Adrian

Number plate on retention from that car transferred to this one perhaps? Used to happen a lot in the 60’s and 70’s. Having seen and owned several Austin Healey 3000’s some were dubious in provenance. One I steered will clear of was allegedly driven to the outright win in the 1960 Liège-Rome-Liège Rally by Pat Moss.
Could have been genuine I don’t know. A lot of chassis and half chassis and bodywork changes went on back then.

Seems inconceivable now that a front end write off could be welded to a rear end write off and make a roadworthy car perfectly legally!

One man’s write off is another man’s data plate

…
The MG “T” Register, a branch of the respected MG Car Club, has a register of cars available on their website and the Bader car (GPC 671) is listed on their website as SCRAPPED.

…
If Club experts like the MG Car Club are saying the Bader car was written off and scrapped by a previous owner then what exactly is the car being sold at auction? I am eager to bid but at the sort of price estimated one needs to be sure that one has the genuine article.

Can anyone assist with more information?

I am a TA owner and have commented on this car earlier in this thread. Along with the T-register, the ‘totally t-type’ has their own list. John James is the owner and might be able to help. Alternatively, you could raise a query with Goodwood directly and provide your information for their comment.

DAI

Welcome.

I doubt we can be of much help. If it was his Hurricane someone here would be able to tell you what colour the inside of the radio bay was painted and how many screws hold each rudder pedal in place. But if it comes to cars then we probably are not a reliable source.

The only clincher would be if you found a car parking ticket from Birkenhead in the glove box. [Forum in-joke]

For the sort of money they are suggesting you could buy a really nice aeroplane and have enough left over for flying lessons. It’s not too late to repent and find yourself a sensible hobby :highly_amused:

Moggy

Hello everyone,

I am attending Goodwood again this year and I am interested in this truly historic MG and I am seriously considering entering into the bidding. During my research I found this thread, so thank you very much for the information. However, other web research that I have undertaken on this car in the last few days has left me decidedly confused.

The MG “T” Register, a branch of the respected MG Car Club, has a register of cars available on their website and the Bader car (GPC 671) is listed on their website as SCRAPPED.

A Google search for “Douglas Bader MG TA” also brings up another page for the Bader car from an “MG T-Types database” website. That page also gives further information that the Bader car was written off by a previous owner in an accident and the chassis was subsequently “sawn up and scrapped”.

If Club experts like the MG Car Club are saying the Bader car was written off and scrapped by a previous owner then what exactly is the car being sold at auction? I am eager to bid but at the sort of price estimated one needs to be sure that one has the genuine article.

Can anyone assist with more information?

I’d not be surprised if it made it into six figures.

I totally agree, This is a highly historic MG and will fetch easily the reserve. and I think Brooklands green is more correct.]

A fellow TA owner and member of the MG-TABC group has a useful website if one is TA interested:

http://www.billdavis.org/MGTA/

I wish my TA was worth the numbers expected at the auction. I think windovers valuations are fair for the current market. The provenance is therefore expected to nearly double a good price. Black was a common colour for TAs; mine is with a red interior.

DAI

Classic cars are my field (www.vandp.net) I am confident the car will make the sum and quite likely more. Market has been strong for past 3-4 years and showing no signs of slowing. Pre war MG’s always in demand, add a famous owner such as Bader and wait for the punters to roll up.

A fellow TA owner and member of the MG-TABC group has a useful website if one is TA interested:

http://www.billdavis.org/MGTA/

I wish my TA was worth the numbers expected at the auction. I think windovers valuations are fair for the current market. The provenance is therefore expected to nearly double a good price. Black was a common colour for TAs; mine is with a red interior.

DAI

Oh and roundel police alert – MG never used British Racing Green as a factory colour on the T-Types – although there are various interpretations of exactly what BRG actually is!

The MG Pavlova Works in Abingdon did offer a green from 1936 for its T type Midgets. Called Apple Green; it was also known as Dublin Green or Emgee Green, and was as near as dammit the same as traditional British Racing Green.
Although there is still some debate as to an exact hue for BRG, currently the term is used to denote a spectrum of deep, rich greens. “British racing green” in motorsport terms means only the colour green in general – its application to a specific shade has developed outside the sport.
The original MG Car Company colour chart gives an idea of the colour; albeit slightly faded after 79 years!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]240071[/ATTACH]
(No thread creep intended!)

I’d not be surprised if it made it into six figures.

Moggy