The Australian
Flight testing of the Boeing 787 could begin as early as next month as Boeing remains on track with its fastest production program yet.
Boeing expects to deliver its first 787 to launch customer ANA in May next year, with Qantas getting its first plane in July-August.
“We are getting really focused on the start of the flight test program, which will happen sometime, we think, late August or early September,” 787 program chief Mike Bair told journalists at last weekend’s rollout of the new plane.
“But I think as all of you know, we don’t schedule first flights: the airplane flies when it’s ready.
“If you put a firm date on the calendar then I think you do something you don’t want to do, so we’re pretty careful about how you approach the first flight of a brand new airplane.”
Six 787s will be involved in the flight tests: four powered by Rolls Royce Trent 1000 engines that will do the basic flight tests and two powered by the General Electric GenX engines chosen by Qantas.
The aircraft will enter flight tests just weeks apart. The certification of the Rolls-powered aircraft and GE planes is expected to be similarly spaced.
The flight test program will last eight months, compared to 11 months for the 777, with Boeing officials hoping the compressed program will be relatively trouble-free.
The aerospace giant has been trying to anticipate problems using analytical tools and the 787 flight control software had also been flown in a 777 to eliminate potential surprises in the flight control laws.
“We have a relatively short flight test program, shorter than what we’ve done on past programs,” Mr Bair said.
“The way we are accomplishing that is by putting everything in place that we need to have in place in order to fly the airplanes than we have in past programs. So we’re pretty confident that we can do that.
“We’ve spent a lot of time looking at the results of the 777 flight test program and have made some adjustments to approaching how we fly the airplane in order to accommodate the real high flight rates that we needed in order to support this relatively quick certification process that we have.”
Challenged about the possibility of delays, Mr Bair said Boeing had no intention of being late into service and had plans to ensure its delivery to ANA was on schedule.
This was subject to any big surprises cropping up in flight test, but this was not anticipated.
He said comparisons between the 787 and the massive delays suffered by the Airbus A380 were “apples and oranges” and the wiring problem that led to them had not slowed up the European aircraft’s flight tests.
“We’ve done a lot of testing of this airplane leading into flight testing that gives us a high degree of confidence that we’re going to have a pretty smooth flight test,” he said.
“But it is a flight test and so we are anticipating something – there is always something that happens.”
The Boeing boss said the manufacturer had also been working carefully with the US Federal Aviation Administration on the rules that would apply to certification.
He said the regulations did not restrict how the aircraft was built and, while there remained a few “open pieces of paper”, the two had technically agreed on everything needed in order to demonstrate compliance with the regulations.
“We are actually in better shape than we have ever been in that regard,” he said.
“On past programs, we’ve had open cert issues after we’ve gone into the flight test program.
“Again because of all of the novel systems, all of, obviously, the composite structure and stuff, we wanted to make sure that we didn’t get ourselves into a position where we were in the middle of a flight test and we hadn’t agreed with what we had to do.”
In addition to the intense flight test program, Boeing is also working to make sure its production system will support the big ramp-up needed to deliver big numbers of aircraft in a relatively short time.
The second airframe is being put together in Boeing’s Everett factory north of Seattle and seven or eight big pieces of composite structure are already in process, with other smaller pieces in the production flow.
The manufacturer is also starting to sell and deliver the spare parts needed by the airlines.
The production process for the 787 is more complicated than previous Boeing planes because of the way major components are spread all through the world with a more lightly tooled final assembly in the manufacturer’s Everett factory.
The aim of the global network was to get the best possible suppliers from all countries to contribute to the plane.
But it has not been without its problems: Boeing has had to move in to assist suppliers and it is still grappling with a shortage of fasteners.
“You always have challenges when you have a program this complicated going together in what is really record time, this is a very fast-paced program,” Mr Bair said.
“So we’ve had challenges with some part supplies. It’s stuff that we know what to do with – we are experts at expediting parts and we are expediting a lot of parts right now to make sure we get the production system running the way it needs to run.”
The manufacturer is also looking at increasing production rates to help it cope for the strong demand for its new plane. New orders from Qantas and Air Berlin during the rollout weekend brought the total to 677 from 47 customers and gave Boeing its biggest European foothold to date.
Demand is such that Boeing officials say a new customer could now wait until 2015 to get the first aircraft.
The current production schedule already calls for the delivery of 112 aircraft, including those under construction, in 2008-09.
The plan calls for that rate to remain stable for several years and peak in 2010.
Mr Bair said boosting the rate would not be a problem at final assembly in Everett but depended on the supply base. He said there were no physical restraints on increasing production provided Boeing had sufficient lead time.
“The real issue that we’ve been working on is how much investment would have to be made in order to support higher rates,” he said.
“And what we’re trading off right now is clearly market demand to go to higher rates versus … our knowledge of what this production process can yield.”
By: bring_it_on - 27th July 2007 at 19:59
Just spent 3 days in japan working with some dreamliner team members and they were looking very stressed out indeed . Major issue is the relation between speed of production and getting Quality control , minimize the need for inspecting and re-working on large components . Simply put they need to quickly ramp up aswell as get consistent interms of Quality unit after unit. Not a lot different from other development projects but given the challenging production schedule its giving a lot of sleapless nights to a lot of partners . Boeing has had about 40 day buffer from around the mid to end of august , so as long they get the testing well under way by end of sept they will get enough for certfication given that there are no MAJOR hickups . Also Mcnermy stressed the time and effort required to get systems installed , this is always challenging and granted that the odds of boeing finding out that the wires dont connect etc are remote but the smaller issues also take up a lot of time and effort. Some partners have asked for more time before they are asked to deliver components pre stuffed and ready to install , while others are working things out on schedule . Software still remains a challenging as with all modern aviaiton program. All in all a very important time for the 787 program , years of sweat , effort and man hours have brought them this far but now it is a race against time , the schedule has always been demanding and i wouldnt be too surprised if things slip a month or 2 with the first flight however what is more worrying as of now is the ramp up which is too follow immediately ie. going from 1 a month currently to greater then that once the 6-7 aircraft is done !!
By: Schorsch - 27th July 2007 at 18:20
From the Wall Street Journal:
BY end of September.
Small word, large meaning.
If I were to be pendantic, I would point out that means any time between now and the end of September.
Which is different from saying “Will be at the end of september.” Which is what you seem to want to infer.Anyway… even if its first flight is delayed, no biggy. From the entire project so far, I would guess Boeing have built in some buffer time.
Its got a long way to go before becoming a problem, is my take.
I am the last one who makes a big deal out of it. They should fly before November to evade embarassment. Anything else is within the unpredictable nature of aircraft development.
By: Bmused55 - 27th July 2007 at 17:24
From the Wall Street Journal:
“While the risks inherent in the latter stages of major airplane development programs remain,” the company said the Dreamliner should make its inaugural flight by the end of September, with the first delivery to a customer on schedule for May.
BY end of September.
Small word, large meaning.
If I were to be pendantic, I would point out that means any time between now and the end of September.
Which is different from saying “Will be at the end of september.” Which is what you seem to want to infer.
Anyway… even if its first flight is delayed, no biggy. From the entire project so far, I would guess Boeing have built in some buffer time.
Its got a long way to go before becoming a problem, is my take.
By: Schorsch - 27th July 2007 at 16:16
Interesting indeed. Can you point us in the direction of where you heard/ read that?
Google: “Boeing Dreamliner First Flight”
or
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,496622,00.html
No Airbus propaganda.
By: Bmused55 - 27th July 2007 at 15:01
Interesting indeed. Can you point us in the direction of where you heard/ read that?
By: Schorsch - 27th July 2007 at 08:32
Interestingly Boeing has postponed the start of the flight test program to end of September by now.
By: Bmused55 - 23rd July 2007 at 22:35
A simple “Airbus isn’t my employer” would have done.
I neither questioned you as to who your employer was, nor did I infer you were in any way responsible for any of the old news an company re-hashes as new.
Perhaps you should stop being so defensive all the time and take comments with a bit of salt.
By: Schorsch - 23rd July 2007 at 20:43
Schorsch, you ought to be used to that sort of this, what with your employer re-hashing “news” over and over.
First: You don’t know what my employer is and your assumption is actually wrong. It is also not your business (I neither speculate above yours).
Second: I am not responsible for news of any company, only if I make them or own the company.
Third: I can held accountable inside this community for things I post, and now I wish you best luck in finding any post from me quoting an Airbus’ press release.
Conclusion: Please refrain from making comments about me, especially if they so utterly wrong.
By: Bmused55 - 23rd July 2007 at 15:09
Schorsch, you ought to be used to that sort of this, what with your employer re-hashing “news” over and over.
By: Schorsch - 23rd July 2007 at 14:37
A tad pedantic don’t you think
Not exactly. I was interested because I thought it was news, then I recongnized it wasn’t. So basic message of the article was wrong, which I consider not pedantic.
By: steve rowell - 21st July 2007 at 04:16
You should read the article right before posting it: Bair says late August, early September. The newspaper makes “could begin in August” out of it (which is technically backed by Bair’s statement). You phrase your thread with “to start flight testing in August”.
.
A tad pedantic don’t you think
By: Bmused55 - 19th July 2007 at 16:44
……… If something serious goes wrong –> people say they are the dumbest idiots of all times and they knew it from the beginning.
Only if the delay lasts longer than 2 years :dev2:
That title is currently held by several former and current Airbus execs :diablo:
Its sad to think that due to the latter groups failures in the A380 program, Boeing will get an absolute roasting from the press if they so much as slip by a day because of something that crops up in flight testing.
By: Schorsch - 19th July 2007 at 14:44
Sound buisness descisions arent always different from sound technical descisions and from my expereince on the 787 (as an outsider working with boeing) has been that they are listening to the folks that are making this aircraft on technical issues !
A classic case where business and technical issues go different ways is testing. Flight test costs huge amount of money in manpower and bound capital. Additionally, flight test has normally not much to do with production. The temptation to save here in order to speed up the whole program is huge. But it has some drawbacks. Many tests (ground and flight) give feedback on system and structural performance. Figure these out and decide about solutions may take some time. If – for example – a structural part is found to be not compliant with requirements (fatigue, limit loads, etc), its replacement is difficult in such a short time.
Let’s see what happens. If nothing goes wrong –> people say they are the greatest. If something serious goes wrong –> people say they are the dumbest idiots of all times and they knew it from the beginning.
By: bring_it_on - 18th July 2007 at 18:25
I just fear that the 787-schedule was dictated by business man, without real input by engineers.
What makes you think that there wasnt technical involvment ?
I have 2.5 years expereince handling the 787 production line (basically concept development , implementation , global partner integration etc) and i can vouch from expereince that as far as the production was concerned there was quite a bit of input from technical folks , it wasnt all boardroom stuff at all . We revised our sanctioned plans 2-3 times because some boeing engineer kept pointing to us what couldnt be done , or what could be done (where we underestimated them) etc . Flying around the partners (specially asian ones) all of last year i have first hand expereince with some very inteligent folks working at things charting the progress and designing strategies for the future work . Ultimately most descisions are made at the boardroom because that is where the money is but boeing ( ONLY BCA , ID sucks at this) does a pretty good job . A classic case would be production ramp up , boeing is facing tremendous pressure from airlines to –
– Ramp up production for 787 (8,9) from 2010
– Define and launch 787-10
Sound buisness descisions arent always different from sound technical descisions and from my expereince on the 787 (as an outsider working with boeing) has been that they are listening to the folks that are making this aircraft on technical issues !
By: Schorsch - 18th July 2007 at 16:13
Yes that is a serious sticking point aswell ! It would be an interesting sight indeed , they claim it to be the most well planned program boeing has ever done so lets see if they figure this part out ( they have done well up till now) .
As engineer I always expect the unexpected. “Unknown unknowns” have always been the stumbling blocks in aviation on either side of the ocean.
Friction occurs, that is why things tend to be late most of the time and rarely come out too early. I just fear that the 787-schedule was dictated by business man, without real input by engineers. Same thing happened at A380, and results are the staircase wit of this decade.
All this talking about “challenging schedule”, “new methods” and “game-changing technology” gets a second meaning when it falls apart like a card house.
By: bring_it_on - 18th July 2007 at 13:32
I think they initially said August, but memory maybe weak.
IIRC they said that it would fly “WHEN IT IS READY” , some have claimed august (some boeing people on record) but the word out publically from the top is that aug-sept (and has been for about a month or so) . The important part is that they have till end of sept. before they have to push back cert.
Who they gonna test a completely new aircraft in just under 8 month remains their secret
Yes , and as of now i think it would be the biggest hurdle to EIS (unless some technical issues have been kept away from us) . It is really tight , and with a composite airframe and all that…..But again they have known of the schedule (timeframe) for some time so have had time to plan . Lets see it would be an interesting test program for sure.
Its simple, they’ll be using 6 planes to conduct the flight testing, 6 planes to share the workload. 6 planes flying at more or less the same time will accumulate a lot of flight hours, very quickly. This should mean a faster testing program and certification.
Yes but they will be entering flight about 1 month after the other so its not like they will have 6 aircraft all of the 8 months of flight testing . The second aircraft is in production ( wont fly) and should be ready to roll out (minus engines ) by around mid next month , after that the next 4 aircrafts would most likely be rolled out @ aprox 1 a month !
Flaws that become obvious in the flight test program (and there are always flaws) are quite tricky to overcome in that short period of time.
Yes that is a serious sticking point aswell ! It would be an interesting sight indeed , they claim it to be the most well planned program boeing has ever done so lets see if they figure this part out ( they have done well up till now) .
By: Schorsch - 18th July 2007 at 08:15
I take it you mean “how”
Its simple, they’ll be using 6 planes to conduct the flight testing, 6 planes to share the workload. 6 planes flying at more or less the same time will accumulate a lot of flight hours, very quickly. This should mean a faster testing program and certification.
Its no secret, Boeing has been briefing the media on this plan for quite some time now.
I have joined one flight test program of a new and pretty big aircraft, so I know what can happen. Following bring_it_on, “my” aircraft was very conventional, compared to the revolutionary B787.
The number of aircraft is important, but a big bunch of tests can only be done by one or maybe two aircraft. Maybe Boeing affords two heavy FTI equipped aircraft, but I doubt.
Flaws that become obvious in the flight test program (and there are always flaws) are quite tricky to overcome in that short period of time.
FTI = Flight Test Installation
By: Bmused55 - 18th July 2007 at 07:02
…..Who they gonna test a completely new aircraft in just under 8 month remains their secret……
I take it you mean “how”
Its simple, they’ll be using 6 planes to conduct the flight testing, 6 planes to share the workload. 6 planes flying at more or less the same time will accumulate a lot of flight hours, very quickly. This should mean a faster testing program and certification.
Its no secret, Boeing has been briefing the media on this plan for quite some time now.
By: Schorsch - 18th July 2007 at 06:55
Yes the article and the thread title seem to be wrong slightly , Boeing (nor any other OEM) will give a firm date of start of flight testing = First flight because so many things have to fall into place , The aircraft has to be completely wired —> Systems installed —> systems checked—> Power on—-> engine runs and aborted take offs etc etc etc , Also weather plays a part ! Boeing has always maintained that first flight would be aug-sept , and atleast at the rollout mike bair was confident in that it would be very close to 2nd week of september and that they can wait all september and still be on shedule for the certification meaning that even if the first flight takes place in the 3 or 4 week of september there would be no change in certification schedule ( they have some breathin room) . I have no indication that anything so far has caused boeing to either push back or bring forward the dates and they still remain on track for “Aug-Sept” first flight !
I think they initially said August, but memory maybe weak.
Anyways, many issues may shift FF a few days, nothing really to worry about.
Who they gonna test a completely new aircraft in just under 8 month remains their secret. I may add that most certification issues need to be done about 2 to 3 month ahead of actual certification, giving them a window September to February (which is BTW Winter time) for many tests.
Good luck all involved!
By: bring_it_on - 17th July 2007 at 12:16
Yes the article and the thread title seem to be wrong slightly , Boeing (nor any other OEM) will give a firm date of start of flight testing = First flight because so many things have to fall into place , The aircraft has to be completely wired —> Systems installed —> systems checked—> Power on—-> engine runs and aborted take offs etc etc etc , Also weather plays a part ! Boeing has always maintained that first flight would be aug-sept , and atleast at the rollout mike bair was confident in that it would be very close to 2nd week of september and that they can wait all september and still be on shedule for the certification meaning that even if the first flight takes place in the 3 or 4 week of september there would be no change in certification schedule ( they have some breathin room) . I have no indication that anything so far has caused boeing to either push back or bring forward the dates and they still remain on track for “Aug-Sept” first flight !
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July 17, 2007 at 5:05 am