Duke of Kent Sunderland crash 1942. A mystery?

I am familiar with the area and have flown close to the route many times at low level VFR.The theory by Roy Conyers Nesbitt is in my view the most likely. A transit to overhead Thurso is safest by following the coast and turning inland at Lybster.The Highland airways fleet of DH Dragons and Rapides used the coastal route and could transit under very low cloud by being just offshore..although Capt Fresson did have a near miss with the top masts of a battleship just off Golspie.

Yes, your post, and no I wasn’t suggesting that they needed a ground fix after only twenty minutes; in fact quite the opposite.

I agree that they couldn’t stay airborne for ever but I can’t think of any reason why they would need to descend at all until they were nearing Iceland, unless, as I said, the pilot was trying to stay in visual contact with the ground.

Crashed Scotland, destination Iceland…

If this is in reply to my post (immediately before it) I am confused – are you suggesting that they were lost and needed a ground fix within twenty minutes of take off?

Like I said – we shall never really know. Stumble around stabbing guesses, of course, but know…?

I recall reading a series of articles by Roy Conyers Nesbit many years ago in a certain aeroplane monthly mag that went into forensic detail re flights such as Hess, Earhart and this one.

It must be 25 or so years ago but I remember that one contributory factor was that it was known that there was an unofficial ‘short cut’ that was used by some flying on this route and that on this occasion the pilot might have been trying this but mistook his position due to the met conditions.

Possibly because that early in the flight a heavy aircraft would not have the performance (rate of climb) to out climb terrain. I’m assuming a maximum fuel load plus passengers giving a low RoC and the pilot not being sure of the exact location of terrain so trying to remain visual with the ground rather than fly into the cloud with a low RoC.

Other variations are that the pilot might have been trying to remain clear of the cloud by maintaining a set altitude above ground, resulting in aircraft climbing gradually into cloud OR he could fly a set altitude and the base of the cloud could have lowered and they flew into it.

Same result- sharing a cloud with the ground.

I can only guess that the pilot was trying to stay visual with the terrain.

Which would almost certainly eventually result in having to try to out-climb terrain – and with much shorter notice than they had earlier.

Getting a navigational fix 20 minutes out probably didn’t have much to do with getting to Iceland, but more to do with the planned route and staying on it…

Thank you for that detailed route information; I must confess I’ve actually little idea where this aircraft crashed (other than on an island, or not, in the Scottish Highlands). I really must look at a map!

It is great fun playing amateur air-crash detective but I’m surprised that simply climbing at maximum climb-rate in the safest direction until at 5000 feet and then setting course for Iceland wasn’t an option? I know, during wartime, there would be restrictions due to military considerations but can they have been that restrictive?

Must get some idea of rate-of-climb at maximum take-off weight!

I can only guess that the pilot was trying to stay visual with the terrain.

Well, yes…..but why dive into cloud rather than climb into cloud?

Possibly because that early in the flight a heavy aircraft would not have the performance (rate of climb) to out climb terrain. I’m assuming a maximum fuel load plus passengers giving a low RoC and the pilot not being sure of the exact location of terrain so trying to remain visual with the ground rather than fly into the cloud with a low RoC.

Other variations are that the pilot might have been trying to remain clear of the cloud by maintaining a set altitude above ground, resulting in aircraft climbing gradually into cloud OR he could fly a set altitude and the base of the cloud could have lowered and they flew into it.

Same result- sharing a cloud with the ground.

Getting a navigational fix 20 minutes out probably didn’t have much to do with getting to Iceland, but more to do with the planned route and staying on it. The route was Invergordon (18.4 miles) Tarbat Ness (36.9 miles) Clythness (23.2 miles) Thurso (53.4 miles) Cape Wrath (46.1 miles) Butt of Lewis (649 miles) Iceland. As it doesn’t say where the planned landfall over Iceland was I’ve put the straight line distance to Reykjavik in for the final leg. That route was about 80 miles further than going direct, but avoided having to climb to a safety height of at least 4,000ft before heading out to the NW across Scotland. It’s probably worth pointing out that the crash site is at just under 700ft above sea level, to its west is ground up to 2,000ft but ground level is generally less than 700ft to the north and east along the planned route.

Crashed Scotland, destination Iceland…

I am tempted to say that since you can’t stay airborne for ever it is something that will eventually happen, but since they appear to have been in flight for only twenty minutes I guess we shall never know.

Well, yes…..but why dive into cloud rather than climb into cloud?

No, the problem would be the solid stuff hiding in clouds…

That seems a very strange thing to do in low cloud; try to fly under the cloud base (in a mountainous area) and given that the eventual destination was Iceland?

Why couldn’t the aircraft simply climb through the clouds and set course for Iceland? Given the distance to Iceland a precise navigational fix after only twenty minutes in the air wouldn’t help much with navigation (unless the aircraft couldn’t climb-out over the mountains). Or would icing have been the problem in cloud?

Creaking… I recall reading the tail gunner’s account that the Duke himself was flying at the time of the crash and had announced he spotted something below and they were going down to investigate so presumably they saw what they considered might be a U-boat and dived through cloud thinking they were over water.

That is completely at odds with what he told the Court of Inquiry four days after the accident.

His statement was:
“I am an Air Gunner with No.228 Squadron. On Tuesday, 25th August, 1942, I was a member of the crew of aircraft W.4026 which was on passage from Invergordon to Iceland. We were airborne at about 1300 hours and the height of the cloud was about 500 feet. The Captain, Flight Lieutenant Goyen, who was flying the aircraft, told us there would be a lot of cloud around but he did not think it would last long. This was over the inter-com. I was in thr Rear Turret. As we proceeded the cloud came down thicker. I felt the aircraft losing height after about 20 minutes. The pilot was apparently trying to get under the cloud base. I do not remember anything after this.”

He was then asked the following questions:
Do you know who was navigating the aircraft? – I don’t know.
Did you hear anything else over the inter-com? – No.
Do you remember who in the 2nd Pilot’s seat? – No.
Did you think the aircraft climbed much before it started to come down again? – No, not much.
Was the last thing you can remember being in a cloud – Yes.

Years ago I was talking to a well respected RAF Doctor who admitted inadvertently giving a cow an RAF funeral in around 1942.
Basically a multi-crew aircraft crashed with no survivors into a field in UK and he had to divide the body parts up to fill the requisite number of coffins. It subsequently transpired that there had been an “admin error” regarding POB. which was down by one.

There was a cow in the field that the aircraft hit which the farmer had subsequently declared missing……

Completely ‘off-topic’ but interestingly related – I’ve encountered the opposite problem with the identity of body parts. I used to be an ambulance-man and vividly remember attending the scene of a ‘one-under’ (train versus pedestrian). We found three legs. Turns out the very same train had hit a man on the tracks elsewhere on the same line the previous day and the missing leg was ‘hung-up’. It became dislodged in the second incident. This led to a fruitless and grisly search trying to find enough bits to make two people.

Creaking… I recall reading the tail gunner’s account that the Duke himself was flying at the time of the crash and had announced he spotted something below and they were going down to investigate so presumably they saw what they considered might be a U-boat and dived through cloud thinking they were over water.

The Duke was known to be very pro-Nazi and this too has been linked in conspiracies

I think you are confusing two different crashes mentioned in this thread.

Would a civilian death in the crash of a civilian flying-boat be listed in CWGC?

I understand the survivour was a tail gunner and the aircraft was Short Sunderland flying boat W4026?