Dutch investigators: Rebels fired Buk that downed MH-17

Let them fend for themselves? Dammit, the Russian government doesn’t even try to cover up its involvement. It’s had soldiers captured by the Ukrainians well inside Ukraine, it’s provided artillery support to the rebels from inside Russia, serving Russian soldiers have been killed in Ukraine, Russian army vehicles have been filmed driving through Ukraine, Russia’s admitted that soldiers have fought in Ukraine but said they were ‘on holiday’ at the time – an excuse so thin it’s obvious it wasn’t even expected to be believed . . . I could go on. There’s a lot more.

Russia’s been right in it from the start, & hasn’t shown any sign of caring if the world knows.

So what? Brits have been fighting on the ukrainian side too, so cry me a river.

Nic

That’s right. Which proves that the Russian military or govt had nothing to do with it and would have done anything to prevent such a disaster.

But since the US started this proxy war while Putin was at the Olympics, Russia has decided to let the rebels fend for themselves. And these are the kinds of things that happen when you start proxy wars.

Let them fend for themselves? Dammit, the Russian government doesn’t even try to cover up its involvement. It’s had soldiers captured by the Ukrainians well inside Ukraine, it’s provided artillery support to the rebels from inside Russia, serving Russian soldiers have been killed in Ukraine, Russian army vehicles have been filmed driving through Ukraine, Russia’s admitted that soldiers have fought in Ukraine but said they were ‘on holiday’ at the time – an excuse so thin it’s obvious it wasn’t even expected to be believed . . . I could go on. There’s a lot more.

Russia’s been right in it from the start, & hasn’t shown any sign of caring if the world knows.

No, hundreds of innocents dead, it isn’t at all funny to me.

Nor is it at all odd that there would be a heck of a lot more available evidence in this case than some back-alley crime. Transporting and operating a SAM like the Buk isn’t something done by a single thug… it is the work of a (Russian) government with numerous people involved at one stage or another, people who need to communicate with each other, etc.

And if the US did not overthrow the democratically elected govt of Ukraine, none of this would have happened. Not MH 17. Not Crimea. None of it.

Ok then…possibly russian Army would have known it was a jetliner

That’s right. Which proves that the Russian military or govt had nothing to do with it and would have done anything to prevent such a disaster.

But since the US started this proxy war while Putin was at the Olympics, Russia has decided to let the rebels fend for themselves. And these are the kinds of things that happen when you start proxy wars.

I have no idea what country you live in, but in the UK, eyewitness reports and brief video recordings (including CCTV) regularly lead to criminal convictions. There is no need to have what Starfish Prime described as “a video of it along the whole journey” made by the Buk interest.

I have no idea what country you live in, but in the UK, eyewitness reports and brief video recordings (including CCTV) regularly lead to criminal convictions.

Umm yes of course. But most of that kind of evidence is verified. For example, a 7/11 store that gets robbed that has the video evidence. The police know that the CCTV footage is that 7/11 at the time of the robbery.

The fact that someone has a 2 minute video of a BUK on a trailer means nothing.

Ehem… Who veto’ed the mh17 resolution in UN?

As for flying in war zones, remember a Singapore Airlines jet was flying just about 5-10minutes behind the MH17 during the incident. I personally has flown over Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan for flights from Europe to south east Asia, it is a normal route for most airlines, not just malaysian.

The UN tribunal for suspects of mh17 is not what I was talking about.

I am talking about the framework idea that was implemented. (it was to include evidence from both sides) It just wasn’t used by the western powers. (because it called for evidence from all sides)

Russian SAMs very independent operate and they don’t need to be inside Ukraine. It’s ukranians SAMs with obsolete short range. do you know how many thousands sams Russia use in test ranges.

Ethnic Russian rebels who live in Ukraine and have Ukrainian passports are the ones who accidentally shot the jet down. Not official Russia in any capacity. Not the Russian govt or military.

Alex Dugin is the Karl Rove of Russian conservative politics.

Ok then…possibly russian Army would have known it was a jetliner

eyewitness reports and small videos uploaded onto social media is not as strong of case as it seems. Quite the opposite actually

I have no idea what country you live in, but in the UK, eyewitness reports and brief video recordings (including CCTV) regularly lead to criminal convictions. There is no need to have what Starfish Prime described as “a video of it along the whole journey” made by the Buk TELAR. In Anglo-Saxon countries, evidence that is ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ is enough to obtain a criminal conviction.

In the case of the Buk TELAR, there are already enough sightings, photos, video recordings, and telephone intercepts to show the location from which it had fired a missile, and the routes that the vehicle had taken to and from that location. And not all of those ‘fixes’ on the TELAR’s position have been revealed so far. There is also the testimony of an individual who was involved in the TELAR’s return to Russia.

BTW: The telephone intercepts neatly illustrate a problem faced by many comint operations – that of finding the proverbial needle in a haystack. Unless the Ukrainians had prior reason to monitor the mobile phones in question, and had fast-tracked the playback and transcription, those telephone transcripts would have been made too late to save MH17. They were probably made as part of the post-shootdown investigations.

As to whether the downing of MH17 was a war crime, this would presumably by decided by whatever court may be asked to hear the case.

Well gentlemen, looks like the hunt is on.
Police looking for more information on two persons.

And they know the names of around 100 more individuals of potential interest.

I was amused to see that Starfish Prime is complaining that the JIT material he found is not a formal report. The document that I suggested he read was the report by the Dutch Safety Board. But I do not think that the JIT intended Wednesday’s presentation to satisfy Starfish Prime and other amateur critics. A significant part of its intended audience is probably East Ukrainians who could provide further evidence on the TELAR, its operations, and on those persons of interest.

this investigation is a circus

1. ukraine was fighting against rebels
2. Evidence submitted by both rebels and Ukraine should not have been used
3. russia’s evidence should have been used (its a 3rd party)
4. US satellite data should be published

untill all this happens this whole investigation is BS, any report where poland is helping is automatically BS- they should have never participated due to their bias. UN should have done the investigation

1 So what? Ukraine is a party, because the shooting took part over THEIR country.
2 Rebels did not give evidence. They gave it AWAY. Big difference.
3 Evidence from Russia was used. Go read the rapport, because you obvious haven’t done that. Welcome to the club, you are not the only one.
4 US stuff was looked into by some members from the first report. You are not going to see it, because it ‘s classified. Some stuff in the military is not meant for you.
It was concluded that the material shown did NOT affect the conclusions of the report. Deal with it.
ESA delivered of lot stuff from their civil satellites and those were published and meticulously studied by experts from 200 of the best investigators from the world who worked on the case for TWO years.
Even fired life Buk missile to study trajectory in Finland. That is the extend in which they went and basically nailed it. The study at least follows scientific scrutiny of falsification and peer-review before
publishing and there we an absolute nobody on the internet, with no credentials AT ALL, telling the report is BS.
XXXX

Well gentlemen, looks like the hunt is on.
Police looking for more information on two persons.

Person 1:
Alias: Orion (callsign)
First name: Andrey Ivanovich

Person 2:
Alias: Delfin (callsign)
First name: Nikolay Fiodorovich

https://www.politie.nl/themas/flight-mh17-2.html

The UN put forth a framework for the investigation that everyone agreed to but then the western authroties just scrapped it.

Ehem… Who veto’ed the mh17 resolution in UN?

As for flying in war zones, remember a Singapore Airlines jet was flying just about 5-10minutes behind the MH17 during the incident. I personally has flown over Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan for flights from Europe to south east Asia, it is a normal route for most airlines, not just malaysian.

this investigation is a circus

1. ukraine was fighting against rebels
2. Evidence submitted by both rebels and Ukraine should not have been used
3. russia’s evidence should have been used (its a 3rd party)
4. US satellite data should be published

untill all this happens this whole investigation is BS, any report where poland is helping is automatically BS- they should have never participated due to their bias. UN should have done the investigation

The UN put forth a framework for the investigation that everyone agreed to but then the western authroties just scrapped it.

this investigation is a circus

1. ukraine was fighting against rebels
2. Evidence submitted by both rebels and Ukraine should not have been used
3. russia’s evidence should have been used (its a 3rd party)
4. US satellite data should be published

untill all this happens this whole investigation is BS, any report where poland is helping is automatically BS- they should have never participated due to their bias. UN should have done the investigation

Well that looks like a summary not an actual report. The report should contain the evidence itself, not merely reference to it.

However, take this Ukrainian intercept on the 16th July, the day before the incident, and tell me the Ukrainians had no evidence of a BUK possibly operating in the area. Yet they still chose to allow an airliner to divert over it at the last minute.

For the record I’ve tried view the report but every link to it seems to be dead.

It only took me one google search to find the JIT site…

https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/mh17-vliegramp/presentaties/presentation-joint/

Mercurius, doesn’t have to prove anything, the JIT already did that, but if you refuse to read, any discussion is pointless.
Ans yes there is video, photo’s audio from tapped phones and animation of the entire journey. Eyewitness reports even from first hand.
What more do you want?
The JIT is not a rapport on how to prevent incidents like this. That is not their job. It is to make a case, to be used in a criminal court.
It is up the the judge what happens next.
Bear in mind that they haven’t disclosed all of it yet and that the investigation will continue.

eyewitness reports and small videos uploaded onto social media is not as strong of case as it seems. Quite the opposite actually

For the record I’ve tried view the report but every link to it seems to be dead.

Mercurius, doesn’t have to prove anything, the JIT already did that, but if you refuse to read, any discussion is pointless.
Ans yes there is video, photo’s audio from tapped phones and animation of the entire journey. Eyewitness reports even from first hand.
What more do you want?
The JIT is not a rapport on how to prevent incidents like this. That is not their job. It is to make a case, to be used in a criminal court.
It is up the the judge what happens next.
Bear in mind that they haven’t disclosed all of it yet and that the investigation will continue.

For a criminal prosecution as a war crime they would have to prove it was deliberate and even the Ukrainian-supplied radio intercept (assuming genuine) exonerates them of that.

So basically it was all a pointless waste of time. No learning from mistakes, some blatant falsehoods and whitewashing, and an attempt to build an impossible criminal case that nobody will ever stand trial for and would be acquitted if they did, unless the court was corrupt.

Fiver bet says it was.

Sorry but unless you have a video of it along the whole journey there’s no way of proving that. Was there only 1 BUK in the whole Donbass? I’m not rejecting any evidence but you haven’t provided any. I believe it probably was the rebels but the evidence is circumstantial at best and certainly wouldn’t be enough to support say a murder prosecution in a court of law.

The fact they don’t point the finger at the airline or ATC, or criticise the practice of flying over war zones, or draw the conclusion that it was likely a SAM was known to be in the area prior says it all. Whitewash. All about finger-pointing rather than learning from mistakes and preventing them in the future. For me an investigation like this is supposed to set forward plans to prevent future incidents, not simply point fingers. And if every party outside of the rebels had done everything right, this incident would have been impossible. So in summary business as usual until it happens again some day, which is will, because nobody has learnt anything and nothing has changed.

Mercurius, doesn’t have to prove anything, the JIT already did that, but if you refuse to read, any discussion is pointless.
Ans yes there is video, photo’s audio from tapped phones and animation of the entire journey. Eyewitness reports even from first hand.
What more do you want?
The JIT is not a rapport on how to prevent incidents like this. That is not their job. It is to make a case, to be used in a criminal court.
It is up the the judge what happens next.
Bear in mind that they haven’t disclosed all of it yet and that the investigation will continue.