Duxford – Improving Facilities (& Kemble)

:confused: It’s not the physical footprint size of the marquees that’s the problem,it’s the fact they are 20 feet+ tall and solid [as in you can’t see through them].
The chairs on the fences are a different problem,BUT you can see over them providing the occupants of the seats stay seated.
Working on the basis of the average person is 6 ft tall the person standing behind needs to be 6- 10 inches above them and so on.

Rather than complain about the size of the marquees and seating enclosures and suggest they get moved, I think a far better solution would be to stop the erection of windbreaks and staking out claims by tying chairs to the fence by visitors who then go off and wander the site. Beach towel syndrome comes to mind!
When you look at the actual amount of ‘frontage’ occupied by the seating enclosures compared to the rest of the crowd line it is pretty small.
I did a quick measurement of the crowdline using the ruler tool in Google Earth and the total length of the crowdline is ~1400m
The Gold/Platinum Pass Enclosure is ~ 90m
Pilots/Media Enclosure is ~25m
Friends Of Duxford Enclosure is ~25m
Therefore the pens for the “privileged few” is about 10% of the total available crowdline.

Hardly dominating the site…..

Ollie.

Would that be the same forum you’ve tried to join several times?

If you think about it logically Ollie, why should anyone take any notice even if you offered an opinion on improvements to Duxford as you never pay to get in and stand in the field opposite instead? Therefore any improvements in facilities are of no interest to you whatsoever.

For your infomation i have not tired to join that place for about 2 years now.

If Duxford where to do something about the problems mentioned maybe i would come onto the airfield for a change?

Ollie.

Would that be the same forum you’ve tried to join several times?

If you think about it logically Ollie, why should anyone take any notice even if you offered an opinion on improvements to Duxford as you never pay to get in and stand in the field opposite instead? Therefore any improvements in facilities are of no interest to you whatsoever.

I think Robant is right, we’ll never agree on this but this idea of an uber venue intrigues me. Where do you think it should be? And in light of your comment about councils trying to stop airshows in places, what suggestions would you make to encourage authorities to support the idea of an uber venue?

Regards,

kev35

Ollie, if you communicated effectively there’d be nothing to comment about. If you attended the shows you’d have a valid voice in this discussion.

Go annoy someone else and stop being so childish. You have your own little forum, go talk to people there rather than getting peoples backs up here.

Well, clearly we’re going to disagree. I don’t think there’s any merit in trying to sway you into thinking anything like this might be a good idea. So fair enough. If you don’t want to contribute to the discussion, that’s fine. That’s your choice.

Neither you, nor I, know what and who might be interested in using such an asset. And that’s not my purpose here. I’m just fielding an idea. Some think it’s good, others think it’s bad. Some think that it’s completely derisory.

Don’t be surprised though, if councils eventually win their goal of completely stopping airshows in some places altogether. We’ll be left with nothing to fall back on if something can’t be worked out that will placate them, and all the other naysayers.

Rob.

Stop twisting things. I said airshow, not fly in or fast taxy run or any other event. You know I meant airshow in the traditional sense. Do you really think the RAF are going to move assets from Waddington to somewhere like Kemble when the infrastructure already exists at Waddington? It’s nonsensical. Do you think RIAT might move to Halfpenny Green? Yeovilton might move to another airfield for their airshow? Or Cosford? When in the last case the Museum associated with Cosford is an integral part of Cosford’s airshow experience. Perhaps the same applies to Yeovilton.

I really don’t understand your comment about “a purpose made venue that has the facilities and experience to cater for safety,” I would have thought that was a prerequisite for any airshow? What place can be more purpose built to hold airshows than airfields which have existed, in many cases, for 60 years and more? I believe there are at least one and possibly two newly and purpose built horse racing courses which have closed or are under threat of closure because there are not enough people going through the turnstiles.

Regards,

kev35

As for Duxford, why do they need more permanent toilets and catering facilities?

It’s an idea, it’s not worth going into in any great detail at this point. I was merely using Duxford as an example of a place that hosts quite a few events now. The places you highlight are not really large enough to cater for regular events, especially if more events were to be attracted to the site.

They don’t have to be permanent grandstands,they can put them up for concerts in short order.
They don’t even need to be that high,lets be honest anything 3 feet above the person in front would work a treat.
There are static civil airframes parked along the front area which could be moved away for the air displays [it’s not as if they don’t know the dates of the displays].
Do away with some of the ground clutter for a couple of days and keep the marquees back further and i am certain it is doable,but there’s no will so there’s no way :rolleyes:

Not quite sure where you would move the civilian airliners to – they can hardly be moved off the hard-stands onto a grassed area due to their weight.
With the number of aircraft appearing at the likes of Legends most of the available ‘spare’ space is taken up anyway.
Any complaints about the size of the Gold Pass/Platinum Pass/Pilots Enclosures might best be aimed at TFC, as I believe for Legends they are their responsibility.
The other enclosures (Friends of TFC, Friends Of Duxford) are probably important to help bring in funds to help support them and to ‘recruit’ new members. I can’t see the point of paying for a seat in a dedicated enclosure if the view is going to be of the backs of peoples heads standing in front of you.
It was bad enough having the odd inconsiderate (and illiterate as it seems they couldn’t read the signs asking them NOT to stand) person standing up during the low level passes.

Corr i would.. i love footie, and the £1m would be a welcome bonus.!:p;)

You can have the money, and the armoured vehicle tow with my blessing. Frankly, anyone who actually WANTS to go to a football match deserves it. But I’d prefer to keep the leg I’d gnaw off out of sheer boredom.

only Duxford holds more than one airshow a year

No, that is not correct. I know that Kemble has a few events during the year. Many of which you might not consider to be in the traditional “airshow” frame, but which follow a similar format. Kemble has at least 3 events. I’ve been to two so far, and there is another one later this year. The VFWE, Annual Air Day & Battle of Britain Weekend.

But there are also a myriad of organisations, that might find it better to host some of their events at a purpose made venue that has the facilities and experience to cater for safety, vehicle management and a whole host of other matters.

The RAF and Navy, for instance, might prefer not to subject their bases to public intrusion, especially as a lowering of costs and stretching of their resources becomes more prevent, and want host their annual events at a small number of these purpose built venues. Outsourcing is often hailed as a good way of keeping costs down.

They don’t have to be permanent grandstands,they can put them up for concerts in short order.
They don’t even need to be that high,lets be honest anything 3 feet above the person in front would work a treat.
There are static civil airframes parked along the front area which could be moved away for the air displays [it’s not as if they don’t know the dates of the displays].

Do away with some of the ground clutter for a couple of days and keep the marquees back further and i am certain it is doable,but there’s no will so there’s no way :rolleyes:

I think Duxford and Kemble should have tempory granstands. As a serious Airshow photographer on a budget I would pay extra to use a public grandstand. I remember that they had them at Farnbourgh and at other shows.The last time I went to Duxford it was crush in the public areas. A great deal of space was taken up by corperate lawns etc.

Rob.

I don’t think anyone has suggested anywhere else because I don’t think that the idea of grandstands has much of a following. I think the point is that apart from OW, only Duxford holds more than one airshow a year. Is that right? Fairford, Waddington, Leuchars, Cosford, Kemble, Biggin Hill, all of these are one off events that last no more than a weekend. I can’t see how airshow producers would stand the cost of erecting permanent grandstands without having to place a very high premium on their purchase by the airshow goer.

As for Duxford, why do they need more permanent toilets and catering facilities? There are enough on site to cover the other 350 days when no events are taking place. So for half a dozen events you would expect them to make a significant financial investment only used for a couple of weeks in the year? I think that money could be better spent elsewhere. I still believe the erection of permanent grandstands at Duxford would totally destroy the ambience of the place. Especially if, as you suggested, they were placed just two metres from the crowdline. Last time I went the crowdline was considerably deeper than six feet for much of its length.

The idea of a specialised airshow venue is an interesting one but again it’s one which I don’t think is workable. No airfield operator would be willing to take on such a move without financial guarantees but if you were thinking of some such, how about Coventry? Museum on site, central location, quiet since the demise of Thomson’s operations. But how are you going to get enough airshows staged in a season to make it worth while? I can’t see any new airshows springing up in the current climate and I’m pretty sure that current airshow organisers would not be willing to move venue unless it was made significantly worthwhile for them.

Regards,

A non confrontational kev35

If you think that Duxford isn’t the right place for this idea, is there anywhere you would suggest instead?

Thanks.

PS/ I hate football with a passion. I wouldn’t go to a match if they paid me £1,000,000 and tied a rope round me and dragged me there behind an armoured vehicle.

Corr i would.. i love footie, and the £1m would be a welcome bonus.!:p;)

“Yes, why should the few have all the room, I’m sure the “non-priveleged” punters would find less of a crush if more room was given to them rather than the priveleged few.”

It’s not as if those “privileged few” were able to lounge around in spacious comfort! Sure the GP enclosure has expanded, but I think it has had to just to accommodate those “privileged few”. Saturday was very crowded with no spare seats and people standing at the rear.

Eeh, by gum, a sensitive issue this one.
I arrived for the DX Spring airshow at about 8:45, there was a specific request made over the tannoy that step ladders would not be allowed and would be removed from the site, we witnessed the morons struggling with them, but by the time the flying started, they weren’t to be seen. On the other hand, if someone was sensitive enough to position one at the top of the tank bank, against the fence, not blocking anyones view and avoiding the usual pushing and shoving that you get up there, fair enough, I don’t see a problem with that.
Legends, Saturday performance, we had a bit of running around to do to pick everyone up and we got in via the Royston entrance at about 9:15, unbelievably, by then, more or less the whole flightline was occupied with windbreaks and abandoned chairs. We actually found a spot against the fence just about as far up the Tank Bank area as possible, sat down, took it all in in the drizzle and had breakfast. So then what do you do, pack your chairs away while you have a walk round, not likely. Looking over our shoulders while the show was going on it was mayhem. Would sticking grandstands up fix this problem, I think not, it would make it worse, it’s ok providing these things on huge RAF airfields, but DX is quite small, it would make matters worse. I recall going to a DX main airshow many years ago which was sponsored by Bolt Building Supplies. They erected a grandstand probably where the USAF museum is positioned now. I was one of the lucky one’s, being a client I was able to enjoy the smoked salmon sandwiches and enjoy a place in the grandstand for nowt, I felt guilty about it though, shoving this monstrosity up in front of the normal punters was a really bad idea.
Forget it, grandstands are a cr’p idea on such an intimate airfield, it will never work, only for the privelidged few.

Maybe to improve things they could move the enclosures (the gold pass one gets bigger every year) and leave more room for the crowd to get up close and all get a fair look at what they are paying good money to see.

curlyboy

Yes, why should the few have all the room, I’m sure the “non-priveleged” punters would find less of a crush if more room was given to them rather than the priveleged few.

I remember when I first visited Duxford (1977), most of the crowd line was accesible for the punters, whereas now there seems to be less each time – or is it just me getting wider. 😀

Regards grandstands, didn’t Duxford use one a few years ago, in front of the Land Warfare Museum?

Tents and windbreaks shouldn’t be allowed – pretty sure Old Warden bans both. Old Warden also puts bigger vehicles (camper vans etc) to the rear of the arena to allow views of the field for everyone else, perhaps Duxford could try this in areas where they block views, most only seem to be used for putting chairs on top without a thought for anyone elses view.

To throw my tuppence in the pot i hate taking shots at Legends as there is always some inconsiderate person in the way or who decides to put their kids on their shoulder in front of you just as the display starts etc but i think it is more to do with the viewing area as if you go in May or October there is no real issue.

I have access to an enclosure at all Duxford shows and even then Legends can be a shoving match in there, but i will say i once went to RIAT a few years ago and had access to an enclosed grandstand and that did not help photography as the wind was quite considerable and when it rained it made matters worse that and it blocked the view of the runway as there was a few of them.

Maybe to improve things they could move the enclosures (the gold pass one gets bigger every year) and leave more room for the crowd to get up close and all get a fair look at what they are paying good money to see.

curlyboy