Duxford's Liberator

As for the rest of the Lackland airplanes…they to deserve better fates…and paintjobs.

I’ve said that for years.
For awhile the Lackland aircraft had the names of generals painted on them who flew the types early in their careers….so you had a 2-star (or whatever) placard and “Major General Soandso” painted beneath the cockpit,on a type no general ever would have flown in period.

Other Lackland abominations: A T-38 in bad Vietnam-era camo being called a F-5, a rare RB-57A with the large bubble top painted in Vietnam colors as a tandem seat B-57B and, worst of all, a UH-1B painted as a UH-1F/P (which had a markedly different engine installation/cowling).

My guess as to why? It was a commander trying to curry favor with higher-ups.

A lot of people are upset that a very rare Liberator was sent overseas when they’re so rare in this country, (many would like to have seen it go to Willow Run where many Liberators were built), but I’ve never minded it, especially seeing the great restoration job done at Duxford.

For what it is worth…I visited DX a few years ago and was proud to see that B-24, and the rest of the machines on display in the country they proudly served. That airplane deserves to be there and in such good hands. As for the rest of the Lackland airplanes…they to deserve better fates…and paintjobs.

jim

I don’t think anyone was complaining about the B24 deal as such, I’m certainly not, it’s just that it seems surprising it was agreed to. It’s been a good deal all round, USAFM and IWM have got the aircraft they want and they are well preserved under cover.

However, eight complete B24’s spread across the entire USA still leaves them a bit thin on the ground, and you can imagine that some may have been keen to keep her in the States.

Anyway, it’s all water under the bridge…

Thinking bigger guys -the IWM was given an A-10 – F-111 -U-2 -Huey- F-15 amongst other things from the U.S government.

The actual pounds,shillings and pence of the deal is irrelevant when the Liberator is effectively a memorial.

As I understand there are the following basic survivors

USA
B24A CAF* (flying)
B24A Whittington (stored wreck)
B24D USAFM
B24D Atka Alaska (insitu intact wreck)
B24D Hill AFB Museum (composite restoration)
B24M Castle AFB
B24J Collings* (flying)
B24J Pima
B24J Weeks
B24J Barkdale

CANADA
B24J Rockcliffe

INDIA
B24J Poona

AUSTRALIA
B24M Werribee

UK
B24L RAFM (RAF a/c)
B24M AAM Duxford (USAF a/c)

ie out of the 15 current survivors, 8 ie more than 1/2 are still on display in museums in the USA.

I would have thought as a memorial to American aircrews serving in B24’s in the European war theatre that transferring one from outside display in the US to the UK for restoration and indoor display in US markings is an excellent outcome and serving a totally different purpose to the only other B-24 in Europe being the RAF Museums Liberator IV in RAF markings reflecting service in the far east.

I suspect it is far better protected in Duxford compared to Lackland Texas, I am sure far more people see it, and those people are better reminded of the debt owed by Europe to the USA and those who flew such aircraft to help liberate them.

It is far more fitting that such a internationally important memorial to American airmen is undertaken with real airframes than fibreglass mockups, the reverse is true of gate guardian duties in an outdoor display.

The USAF has a significant number of aircraft on external display at USAF Base “museums” and clearly not all of these will be provided with undercover display outcomes in their current locations and risk being lost if otherwise simply left outside indefinately and the time will come when hard decisions will need to be made in regard to rare WW2 and other types within those external displays, the recent scrapping of a B52 in the US being but one example.

Surely it is better to put efforts to ensure the long term future and maximum survival of US B-24s by transfer of the outdoor Castle B24M to the NASM and ensure the outdoor Barkdale B24J goes under cover at Barkdale as against complaining about the move of the outdoor Lackland B24M to undercover display at Duxford, given the horse has bolted and seemed the best outcome in anycase?

regards

Mark Pilkington

Thinking bigger guys -the IWM was given an A-10 – F-111 -U-2 -Huey- F-15 amongst other things from the U.S government.

The actual pounds,shillings and pence of the deal is irrelevant when the Liberator is effectively a memorial.

So the deal was that USAFM got a restored Spitfire V, in exchange for a stripped out and unrestored Liberator.
Bruce

But pound for pound (weight, not money) the IWM got the better deal. :D:)

On the face of it the deal looks skewed towards the IWM, but do remember they restored BOTH airframes!

So the deal was that USAFM got a restored Spitfire V, in exchange for a stripped out and unrestored Liberator.

Bruce

Out of interest, why do you think it was a bad idea, and why would IWM be regretting it?

Because space age architecture does not look space age forever. Since it opened in 97 it has gotten too cramped. I am not in favour of hanging aircraft from ceilings as if they are Airfix models but at least enable people to see them up close, not the case with the Avenger or the U2.

Wasn’t there some issue with the fake Mustang being painted as ‘Sherman Was Right’ as well? If they were so desperate for a Mustang they should have used the one at Lambeth. They don’t have a P38 Lightning either, why don’t they chuck a fibreglass one of those in there too?

David- i know but we did get the very,very short straw on that deal,not even sold as seen…but we must take some blame as we should have checked…

Jack -the Spitfire for Mustang deal was done by the RAFM . The Spitfire for Liberator deal was done by the IWM so any comparison is irrelevant.

Peter -the Lambeth Mustang is indeed real and would fit in better at Duxford.

Did not the US get its own back with the swop of the “P.51” 413573 to Cosford,for the restored Spitfire…

Am I right in thinking that the P51 in the AAM is fibreglass?

Maybe when the aircraft from Lambeth are moved to Duxford (and they have the AAM doors open for the B17) they could swap the Lambeth P51 with the fibre glass model.

Not that Duxford is short of P51’s

Adler Tag -the Liberator was not preserved in the U.S -it was doing display duties outside. The USAFM wanted a Spitfire -the case for the Liberator moving to the U.K to one of the main theatre of operations for the type was seen as fitting.

Jeepman – there is no case for the fibreglass Mustang apart from decoration -I guess its not seen as a serious issue with the real example in the collection at South Lambeth and other examples for comparison on the airfield.

Check the date of the post! In early 2005 the storage area was very cramped, as the new storage building hadn’t opened.

Sorry! I didn’t notice the date of the original post. The new storage building at the Canadian Aviation museum opened in April 2005.

Bill

The Mustang is a bit of a special case as they are in such high demand in any condition, even a crashed wreck sells for thousands more than most museums could afford. A full size model is understandable in the circumstances.

As for the B24/Spitfire swap, the IWM surely got the better half of the deal?? The USAFM badly needed a Spit, and the IWM badly needed a B24. I don’t see how else IWM could have got hold of one, I’m frankly surprised the deal was agreed to at the US end.

As for fibreglass -the IWM is a museum -the preservation of fibreglass aircraft doesnt achieve anything within its remit.

which is presumably why they have a glassfibre Mustang in the AAM…..

Was it really necessary to drag up a 7 year old thread for this??

For the latest images and purely by coincidence there are a few pictures of Duxford B24 taken Friday 02/03/2012 in the collection linked here;

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=115307

.

Dobbins -the USAFM needed a representative Spitfire for its collection . The Spitfire V fitted that bill perfectly. The B-24 was outside and deteriorating at Lackland AFB -it is now perfectly preserved and will last a lot longer ! Therefore it was a good deal for both parties .

The cockpit section of Liberator Fighting Sam was only ever on loan -therefore with the addition of a complete Liberator to the collection its role of representing the type was over.

As for fibreglass -the IWM is a museum -the preservation of fibreglass aircraft doesnt achieve anything within its remit.

Ahem!

For “in store” (jammed in to the storage area), read ‘installed in restored condition in a custom built, climate controlled storage building and available for public viewing on most days’

Regards
Bill

Check the date of the post! In early 2005 the storage area was very cramped, as the new storage building hadn’t opened.