Early Short Sunderland colours

Very late to the game here but have a question for all. MkIIIs are depicted with a tan/brown/copper colour to the engine cowl. Any insight into the exact colour? Trying to get the paint correct on Special Hobby 1/72 MkIII.  BTW, wishing I had bought the Italeri version. Cheers.

Thanks Richard, I’ve never got round to arranging prints of my paintings. I will be selling the original though so if you’re interested pm me..cheers Steve

Thanks Richard, I’ve never got round to arranging prints of my paintings. I will be selling the original though so if you’re interested pm me..cheers Steve

This might help confuse the matter!

http://www.aussiemodeller.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=304

This might help confuse the matter!

http://www.aussiemodeller.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=304

Hi Steve

Well worth the wait. Well done. What title have you given it and is it available commercially, if so where?

Cheers
Richard

Hi Steve

Well worth the wait. Well done. What title have you given it and is it available commercially, if so where?

Cheers
Richard

Well it’s taken a bit longer than I had hoped due to work getting in the way but my painting of the relief of the Kensington Court is now complete. I had hoped the Sunderlands were white or camou but it does seem they were aluminium/natural finish. Not quite as sexy but accuracy is important to me so that’s what I painted. After all your help I thought the least I can do is post an image here to show you the finished article. Thanks again to those who gave help.. Steve

Well it’s taken a bit longer than I had hoped due to work getting in the way but my painting of the relief of the Kensington Court is now complete. I had hoped the Sunderlands were white or camou but it does seem they were aluminium/natural finish. Not quite as sexy but accuracy is important to me so that’s what I painted. After all your help I thought the least I can do is post an image here to show you the finished article. Thanks again to those who gave help.. Steve

Hi guys, here we go again! Making good progress on my painting. I’ve gone for the aluminium finish on the main subject (BH-Y) with an aluminium Sunderland circling overhead. In the background will be the 204 Sqn Sunderland landing. Having looked at the Rafweb site I have a feeling that the 204 Sqn Sunderlands were camou at this time. Could anyone comfirm this?
Thanks
Steve

Flying Boat Haven by John Evans, p.20
http://books.google.de/books?id=SA1Jg2eWZKsC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=sunderland+%22BH-U%22&source=bl&ots=CTDZ1HYkCj&sig=vUZhClqhdCU5ImMK0fMipu57Dds&hl=de&ei=6zj0TJ3kD4OVswaD8d2gCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=sunderland%20%22BH-U%22&f=false

The Sunderland flying-boat queen, Vol. 1 by John Evans, p.13
http://books.google.de/books?id=9LVOSdGUGPkC&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=sunderland+%22BH-U%22&source=bl&ots=So0Wwodqs-&sig=p0Wa68htzepKM56L2NrjSQYTboY&hl=de&ei=yjn0TIGoB5HEswbLw9X0Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=sunderland%20%22BH-U%22&f=false

BH-U, N6135
“This aircraft still wears toned down roundels on its fuselage, red, white and blue roundels underwing and has no fin flash. However, the Sunderland has been painted sky grey overall, losing its squadron badge in the process….”
Sunderland squadrons of World War 2 by Jon Lake, p.108

John’s book also shows two more 228 Squadron Sunderlands with the same roundel – both in the Mediterranean earlier in 1939. The squadron had just returned from there.
Some photos I have of the Aluminium painted Sunderlands pre war all show red white and blue roundels – but they were UK based.
And that where my knowledge on roundels starts to run out . . .
D’you regret asking about these aircraft yet?
AllanK

Well I think it is fair to say that aluminium colour is a dead cert. Am I right in thinking that the roundel on that upside down Sunderland is just red and blue with no white? Was that common?

Dragging inexorably closer to an answer. I had a look in John Evan’s book “Help from the heavens – a history of 228 squadron RAF” (Paterchurch Publications 1998). In it I found this photo:

This is N6135 of 228 Squadron. Chaz Bowyer in “The Short Sunderland (Aston 1989) records that crash as being 10 September 1939 – just eight days before the SS Kensington Court incident.

So we know that, just about a week before, some 228 squadron aircraft were in the Aluminium finish.

And, since not all squadrons used their full squadron code on the aircraft, it is interesting to see that she wore the BH codes and we can assume all 228 squadron aircraft did at that time.

The only confusion is that Hendrie says N9025 was Z/228 and Bowyer says Y/228. We could use another opinion.

AllanK

BU was 214 Squadron’s code.

228 Squadron used TO until June 1939, then BH until September 1939 when they changed to DQ.

BD was used by 51 OTU.

Steve

According to Andrew Hendrie “Short Sunderland in WWII” N9025 was Z/228 at the time. If so it was probably wearing the code BU-Z.

Elsewhere it is listed as BD-Y/228 and later DQ-Y/228. Sorry for the confusion.

Cheers
Richard

Guys

As always, you’ve been brilliant. Thank you once again for your inputs. Having looked at the photos and the above evidence I now have a feeling that they were probably still aluminium. Bit of a shame really as that’s harder to paint and not as good looking as white or camou but I do want the painting to be authentic.
That’s great that you have even named the aircraft for me. I don’t suppose any of you know what the code for N9025 of 228 Sqn was at the time?
Rogier, I for one would be very interested to hear more about the incident if you get time.
It will be after Xmas now but I will post a picture here of the completed painting so you can see how I got on.

Steve

The Imperial War Museum has a photo of the SS Kensignton Court incident which shows part of the Sunderland’s upper surface. See:

http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll?AC=NEXT_RECORD&XC=/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll&BU=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iwmcollections.org.uk%2FqryMain.php&TN=Uncat&SN=AUTO15353&SE=1542&RN=24&MR=25&TR=0&TX=1000&ES=0&CS=1&XP=&RF=allResults&EF=&DF=allDetails&RL=0&EL=0&DL=0&NP=1&ID=&MF=WPENGMSG.INI&MQ=&TI=0&DT=&ST=0&IR=0&NR=0&NB=1&SV=0&BG=0&FG=0&QS=

I’ll have to leave it to you to judge but I can’t see a demarkation line so it could well be Aluminium finish (silver coloured paint). Definitely no white aircraft at that time, likely to have been silver or Land Temperate scheme.

@antoni – thanks for such a comprehensive answer.

It is not known exactly when the White scheme was adopted for Sunderlands but it appears to have been sometime in the first half of 1942. Evidence for this is found in AMO A.664/42 dated 2nd July 1942.

The best I’ve seen with that is more to do with evidence on when it was implemented at the factories rather than when the orders were issued. Have a look at these from the Windermere works:

These particular photos were not dated but DP182 was delivered to Wig Bay in late March 1943 with DP183 following two weeks later

Can I pose a question about the photo of L5802 attached by Etiene above?

I don’t really understand the colours of the paint on that. It doesn’t match the typical Sea Temperate scheme (Extra Dark Sea Grey / Dark Slate Grey). Compare it alongside this drawing below which is fairly accurate (allowing for the usual discrepancies of printing etc). Why the big difference between this colour photo and the accepted colours of Extra Dark Sea Grey / Dark Slate Grey? :confused:

By Teodor Liviu Morusanu from this book.)

Allan

If anyone has The War IllustratedVol. 1, October 14th 1939 on page 156 is an account of the rescue[there was a third and fourth aircraft] the pic above and Capt. Schofield thanking two officer airman and…. tantalising a pic of the tailplane upper surface! Only because of the light, rather than any camouflage, it appears white!

Sea conditions are described as “swell. Ship’s crew was 34 and they did not know if they were hit by torpedo or shell on the starboard side from the U-boat a mile away?! I’ll transcribe more of the account if sufficient interest.