East Midlands Snow Closed.

Very Foggy at NCL this morning, Interesting walking to the car hearing a plane approaching then all of a sudden seeing an Eastern Jet Stream come out of the fog and pull onto a stand.

G-EZAI just declared a full mayday at MAN – EMA Diversion.

(sorry for the lethargic reply)

Would this have been a low fuel emergency?

The snowplough drivers are usually made up of various Ops folks as said. Usually anyone whom can be spared by their company who is twiddling their thumbs due to the snow; fuellers, baggage, waste, air tug drivers etc. Its not as ad-hoc as that though as some of the machines are actually quite specialised and need several days training to learn so there is an active list of trained operatives who usually get a 1-2 day annual refresher in Oct/Nov.

My brother does this at Stansted, and usually gets about 4-8 days a years work on ‘snow patrol’ which usually means sitting in the hanger waiting for the white stuff, and maybe only 0-3 days a year actually clearing at most. As you can imagine the equipment spends most of its life doing nothing and even after 20 years might only have seen a couple of hundred hours usage down south.

Or just strap two of the engines on a pickup so the exhausts are facing forwards and put them up to full power. That should move the snow

Sorry, 40 years too late. Been there and done that. The RAF had a wonderful contraption called the Machine Runway Deicing (MRD). It was a pair of Nene engines (IIRC) on a chassis with a wooden cabin in between that housed the luckless operator. The MRD was then coupled up to a fuel bowser that pushed it along (or vice-versa if you got the revs too high!). The height of the nozzles above the surface was adjusted by a large bottle jack in the control cabin, this entailed a lot of hard pumping as when you tried to lower them a bit you invariably ended up with the nozzles at their lowest position. you then had to pump furiously to get them up before the concrete started to break up!

The idea was that the jet efflux melted the snow and ice, blew the water away and dried the surface. Unfortunately it also had a tendency to melt the tarmac while it was at it and the drying process was none too certain, so you could quickly turn a bit of snow into a nice smooth sheet of ice. There was an even scarier version that was a single engine blowing sideways and towed behind the bowser. These had an unfortunate tendency to slide and rotate at anything above idle revs. I cannot recall when the MRDs were withdrawn from service but I suspect that it was the late 1970s.

exmpa

Anyway, I think they should stick ploughs on the front of old and knackered B742’s. That’d work nicely!

Paul

Or just strap two of the engines on a pickup so the exhausts are facing forwards and put them up to full power. That should move the snow :diablo:

The CAA would probably never allow a snow plough modification anyway, come to think of it. CAP 168:

” The principal objective of an aerodrome RFFS is to save lives in the event of an aircraft accident or incident. For this reason, the provision of means of dealing with an aircraft accident or incident occurring at, or in the immediate vicinity of, an aerodrome assumes primary importance because it is within this area that there are the greatest opportunities of saving lives. This must assume at all times the possibility of, and need for, extinguishing a fire that may occur either immediately following an aircraft accident or incident, or at any time during rescue operations. “

Airfield Ops and Airport/Airfield Engineering has the responsibility for clearing snow, and the RFFS at an airport is a completely separate organisation.

Its quite a straight forward modification, and would sacrifice very little of the vehicles capabilities, while dramatically increasing its versatility.

I don’t see how there is a point in increasing an airport fire appliances versatility like this – becuase it has, and will probably only ever have, one task; one responsibility; – save lives.

” The operational objective of the RFFS is to respond as quickly as possible to aircraft accidents and/or incidents in order to create maximum opportunity for saving life. ” CAP 168

There’s snow point in getting tender about it, let’s not get alarmed though and ‘plough’ on…:rolleyes:

This thread is starting to drift now….. 😎

OK, 101 alternative uses for an airport fire truck:

1. Snowplough
2. Gritter Truck
3. (My contribution) Ice cream van. Think of the novelty value this would have. I’m not convinced as to the musicality of the siren but I’m sure that could be modified!
4. …………

Your ideas please, people! 😀

Paul

4. Sprinkler system in summer (yes yes, whatever day its on this year) – can be used to cool down aircrew… [Females have to wear white t-shirts by law 😀 ]

I am finding this quite funny, people getting quite worked up about putting a plough on the front of the vehicle.

There’s snow point in getting tender about it, let’s not get alarmed though and ‘plough’ on…:rolleyes:

Its even easier to stick a salt trailer on the back of a fire truck :diablo: 😀

OK, 101 alternative uses for an airport fire truck:

1. Snowplough
2. Gritter Truck
3. (My contribution) Ice cream van. Think of the novelty value this would have. I’m not convinced as to the musicality of the siren but I’m sure that could be modified!
4. …………

Your ideas please, people! 😀

Paul

Airport Fire Service Appliances need, as Andrew has said, off-road capability, and may have to, god forbid, drive through wreckage to get to an aircraft, and they may have to go ‘across country’. You only need to see the video of that SAS Dash 8 with a landing gear collapse and see one of the fire engines bound across the grass – it couldnt do that with a plough on the front. I shall try and find the video.

I disagree with the underlined bit.

– with the design of the tenders focusing on having good clearance angles on the front and rear – incorporation of a plough onto the front is relatively easy.

Going back to the big picture I posted earlier, the system would be mounted on hinges at the back of the bumper mounts (underneath the cab and in-line with the low-level lighting. An hydraulic ram would lower and raise the blade in an identical fashion to a mini-digger.

Its quite a straight forward modification, and would sacrifice very little of the vehicles capabilities, while dramatically increasing its versatility.

*Neat vid BTW 🙂

Is a snow plough even the right answer to the type of weather we experience in the winter?

I don’t think it is. Most of the snow we get causes slush at worse, but more normally slippery, icey conditions that make operating aircraft rather dangerous.

With a heavy snow squall you can just plough the snow out of the way in one fell swoop. Ice and slush, at only borderline freezing temperatures, is much more dangerous and much harder to clear away.

You think grit/salt would be a better way of dealing with it?

Its even easier to stick a salt trailer on the back of a fire truck :diablo: 😀

I am finding this quite funny, people getting quite worked up about putting a plough on the front of the vehicle.

Worked up? I see no-one screaming “You don’t know what you’re talking about, you idiot!” or “it would work… You know NOTHING!” Only a mild expression of opinion.

Anyway, I think they should stick ploughs on the front of old and knackered B742’s. That’d work nicely!

Paul

Not a chance dude.

The front bucket (not incl arms) on a 3CX wouldn’t weigh a ton (infact, the max lifting weight is around a ton on the front end), and its coping with much, much heavier loads than a plough.

Nah, just generalisation. It would be very easy to do. It isn’t much of a grand theory either – its more a simple ad-hoc fix solution that no-one seems to have bothered with.

OK, some may have winches, but many/most won’t. Leave the winches on and put ploughs on the ones that don’t.

It would also be the kinda thing that the maintenance engineers will jump at – a chance to build yer own doo-hickey equipped with widgets 😀 – Heck, the fire crews would probably want do it to offset the tedium of sitting on their arses during a normal shift.

You ever seen the blade on a mini digger? Since the blade isn’t actually having to lift anything besides its own weight, the moving mechanism won’t be much addition in terms of weight. Proportionally, its even less than a mini digger as that blade can be used for stability.

As you point out, the issue will be visibility, but for the headlights, the driver’s eye line is too far above the ground to be an issue. Thus, it probably would require moving the headlights to the roof-line or better addition of more worklights to the roof-line and leave the headlights where they are – which is no bad thing anyway, you can never have enough light.

And have airports closed because of a few mil of snow? :confused:

I’m sure big airports have dedicated ploughs, but smaller ones can’t always afford to duplicate equipment when a common solution could do the job of both.

Airport Fire Service Appliances need, as Andrew has said, off-road capability, and may have to, god forbid, drive through wreckage to get to an aircraft, and they may have to go ‘across country’. You only need to see the video of that SAS Dash 8 with a landing gear collapse and see one of the fire engines bound across the grass – it couldnt do that with a plough on the front. I shall try and find the video.

Fireman will never have a ‘normal’ shift where they do nothing at all.

EDIT: video http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/article.php/id-8216610.html?forside

Is a snow plough even the right answer to the type of weather we experience in the winter?

I don’t think it is. Most of the snow we get causes slush at worse, but more normally slippery, icey conditions that make operating aircraft rather dangerous.

With a heavy snow squall you can just plough the snow out of the way in one fell swoop. Ice and slush, at only borderline freezing temperatures, is much more dangerous and much harder to clear away.

And have airports closed because of a few mil of snow? :confused:

Yes they have, but that has more to do with the fact this daft little country of ours has a wonderful inability to get it’s sh!t together. I’ve been to countries in Winter that get real snow (and I mean ‘real’ snow) and seen how things still continue working. Here just a few centimetres is all it takes to virtually shut the country down and I agree, it’s pathetic.

I’m well aware of the point you’re trying to make, I just think the idea is a poor one. I don’t particularly want to see an airport’s fire fighting vehicles out pushing snow around and in any case, whatever you say I’m not convinced putting a big bit of steel onto the front of a vehicle designed partly for speed and agility is a good idea and I won’t be convinced until someone who either manufactures, maintains or drives one of the fire units says it would work.

Do we have any airport fire-type people on here who could give us the benefit of their experience?

Paul

The average aluminium tail lift on a 7.5 or 17.5 tonner adds another half a ton to the weight of the truck (slightly more in some cases). I suspect a large, solid, 3 foot high steel plough with large, solid mountings would add somewhat more than 500k’s!

Not a chance dude.

The front bucket (not incl arms) on a 3CX wouldn’t weigh a ton (infact, the max lifting weight is around a ton on the front end), and its coping with much, much heavier loads than a plough.

You seem to be basing your theory on this one picture?

Nah, just generalisation. It would be very easy to do. It isn’t much of a grand theory either – its more a simple ad-hoc fix solution that no-one seems to have bothered with.

OK, some may have winches, but many/most won’t. Leave the winches on and put ploughs on the ones that don’t.

It would also be the kinda thing that the maintenance engineers will jump at – a chance to build yer own doo-hickey equipped with widgets 😀 – Heck, the fire crews would probably want do it to offset the tedium of sitting on their arses during a normal shift.

Plus what about ground clearance. Aircraft dont always crash on tarmac, off road capabilites need to be achieved at any time. A snow plough on the front would mean it would be very hard to ensure ground clearance whilst still remaining effective. If you are going to talk about lowering/raising it for ground clearance, then you have visibility issues and yet more weight to the front of the tender.

You ever seen the blade on a mini digger? Since the blade isn’t actually having to lift anything besides its own weight, the moving mechanism won’t be much addition in terms of weight. Proportionally, its even less than a mini digger as that blade can be used for stability.

As you point out, the issue will be visibility, but for the headlights, the driver’s eye line is too far above the ground to be an issue. Thus, it probably would require moving the headlights to the roof-line or better addition of more worklights to the roof-line and leave the headlights where they are – which is no bad thing anyway, you can never have enough light.

A very fair point. Let’s leave the specialised equipment alone to do the job (or hopefully not to do the job) it was designed for.

And have airports closed because of a few mil of snow? :confused:

I’m sure big airports have dedicated ploughs, but smaller ones can’t always afford to duplicate equipment when a common solution could do the job of both.

You seem to be basing your theory on this one picture?

Plus what about ground clearance. Aircraft dont always crash on tarmac, off road capabilites need to be achieved at any time. A snow plough on the front would mean it would be very hard to ensure ground clearance whilst still remaining effective. If you are going to talk about lowering/raising it for ground clearance, then you have visibility issues and yet more weight to the front of the tender.

The price of implementing this would probably be more than that of buying a cheap snow plough!

A very fair point. Let’s leave the specialised equipment alone to do the job (or hopefully not to do the job) it was designed for.

Paul

I can’t remember exactly if EDI has dedicated snow clearing vehicles or just attachments for the 4×4’s (probably the former), but it is the Airport Ops and Security staff that actually do the snow clearing. During the winter period, those trained are on call for selected dates and if snow hits the airport they drop what they are doing and come in and clear it as best they can.

No winches on most of them…

The plough does not have to be any more than 3ft tall guys! On the tender pictured, it would all be mounted below the bumper. Only the lower lights would be blocked (and from experience, they are too low to be useful anyway – they should be mounted on the roofline).

You seem to be basing your theory on this one picture?

Plus what about ground clearance. Aircraft dont always crash on tarmac, off road capabilites need to be achieved at any time. A snow plough on the front would mean it would be very hard to ensure ground clearance whilst still remaining effective. If you are going to talk about lowering/raising it for ground clearance, then you have visibility issues and yet more weight to the front of the tender.

The price of implementing this would probably be more than that of buying a cheap snow plough!