By: Arthur - 5th February 2003 at 21:34
RE: Eastern Europe
That looks like my kind of place to travel. Nothing like
having the old soviet nostalgic feeling. What about places
like Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania?
I’m not really fond of them, and Estonia is actually one of my least favourite countries. While these countries do their very best to deny their Soviet past, the local police forces are just as corrupt if not worse than the nastiest Russian Militsioner to name but one thing.
Estonians are a rather closed and IMHO even unfriendly, humourless people. All too keen trying to be Scandinavian (which they are not, first of all because Scandinavians are friendly and helpful), absolutely discriminating their large Russian minority (also true for a lesser extent for Latvia and Lithouania), but Tallinn is not much more than a cheap bar for alcoholic Finns.
Latvians are a bit more friendly, a bit more open, and Riga is IMHO the nicest city in each of the three countries. Nevertheless, it’s a country where you have to be very cautious for polite criminals and criminal policemen. And while Riga is nice and fun to hang out, and you can get lucky in some other cities, there are still too many dreary, unfriendly and absolutely boring places like Daugavpils there (don’t ask… i had to spend a night there twice on two separate occasions :'( )
Lithouania is IMHO the most ‘open’ country of the three, and the one least in denial of it’s past – even though you will come across the occasional group-bashings of Russian and Belorussian traders which visit the country.
All three definately have quite a bit of that Soviet-nostalgia within their borders, but they all deny that and will definately try to keep you away from it, or at least from noticing it. And their population all seem to miss that joyfully-cynical-fatalistic spirit you can find amongs so many other former Soviet peoples (of course amongst the Slavic peoples, but it’s also quite common with Caucasian and Turkic peoples as far as i have experienced).
By: serendib - 5th February 2003 at 20:57
RE: Eastern Europe
>If you do want the foggy, gloomy, darkness-stricken,
>bored-to-death atmosphere usually associated with Eastern
>Europe: try a Romanian provincial town, or the entire
>country of Belarus. Now those are travel experiences…
That looks like my kind of place to travel. Nothing like having the old soviet nostalgic feeling. What about places like Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania?
Sam.
By: Arthur - 5th February 2003 at 20:22
RE: Eastern Europe
Czech Republic? Well, i hardly call that Eastern Europe. While it isn’t yet as economically thriving as the traditional Western European nations, it is definately not a ‘backward’ country – something which is for many people the equivalent of Eastern Europe.
Whereas still plenty of people still live in WarPac-concrete, the standard of living for the Czech Republic is more or less comparable to Greece, Spain or Portugal. There is no hunger, unemployment is at a bareable level, all sorts of goods are plentiful available and affordable for the vast majority of the population, people are friendly and open (can’t help but love the Czechs!), highways are being built at an enormous rate, advertisings pollute the sights in cities and on the countryside… if you plan on going there, i sincerely doubt you’ll be able to match it with the image of Eastern Europe you probably have in your mind (well, i can be wrong of course). The first time i was in (then) Czechoslovakia was in 1990, and i have a hard time fitting my memories from that first trip to my current experiences when i go there (which is more or less once a year).
If you do want the foggy, gloomy, darkness-stricken, bored-to-death atmosphere usually associated with Eastern Europe: try a Romanian provincial town, or the entire country of Belarus. Now those are travel experiences…
By: mixtec - 4th February 2003 at 22:55
RE: Eastern Europe
Arthur- Ill pick one out of the hat then…czeck rep
By: ink - 4th February 2003 at 11:45
RE: Eastern Europe
Well, ok, you asked for it. Here’s my personal view on standard/quality of life in just one country: Yugoslavia. In Yugoslavia the standard of living is surprisingly high and while there are deprived areas they are no worse than the slums of Birmingham or Liverpool. The reasons for the common misinterpretation of figures such as average wage and GDP are many-fold. Firstly, in Yugoslavia the national average wage is only calculated from the wages of state workers and the individuals who pay tax. The problem there is that many people who work for private companies or for their own business either don’t declare their entire earnings or don’t pay tax at all. Also, the problem of GDP is significant because the cost of living, even in Belgrade, is many times smaller than the cost of living in Barcelona. A packet of cigarettes for example would cost rouchly £0.60 – much cheaper than anywhere in Western Europe. From my own experience even the people who are poor aren’t that poor and manage a resonable quality of life. A family who rented a basement apartement in my home in Belgrade worked at the local market selling stationary for school kids but even they were able to all have mobile phones, drive a respectable car and take a holiday each year.
From what I have seen, the standard of living in Yugoslavia is pretty high and it is possible to even do quite well there – I for example plan to move back in the next few years.
The sad part of the story is that things are getting worse. Since the fall of Milosevic, wages have not singificanlty risen while the cost of food, accomodation, heating, electricity etc etc has more than doubled. There is now much more unemployment, benefits claims have increased and so on. Yugoslavia’s economy might be improving but it is undoubtedly at the cost of the quality of life in the country.
By: Arthur - 4th February 2003 at 10:15
RE: Eastern Europe
Just give me an overview of which countries you’re interested in – i’ve visited most bar Albania and Bosnia. I haven’t got the time yet, so…
By: Rabie - 4th February 2003 at 10:04
RE: Eastern Europe
as far as i know hungary, czechs, ploand, the baltics and slovenia are the best steas
then slovakia, romaania, bulgaria, croatia, etc
really bad in places like albania
but im not real experts o……
i don’t think they are starving or anything and some people are doing quite welll
rabie :9
By: Geforce - 3rd February 2003 at 19:42
RE: Eastern Europe
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 03-02-03 AT 07:43 PM (GMT)]From what I’ve heard, living conditions in Eastern Europe are still pretty bad, especially in the Balkan and the former USSR (minus the Baltic states). The Czech Rep. and Poland do better, but are still far behind the EU. 85 % of trade in Europe is within the EU, which says a lot about the European countries who are not a member of the Union.
By: mixtec - 3rd February 2003 at 18:57
RE: Eastern Europe
On average what is the living standard? Here in Mexico the average income for a faimily might only be $300, but people get by on that, and by appearances you would think that people earn alot more for all the stores and appliances you see. So in East Europe is it bread line level for many? If so what percentage? And what percentage of people there can buy a modest house or car or whatever?
By: mongu - 3rd February 2003 at 18:45
RE: Eastern Europe
I think some are quite forward, like the Czech Republic and maybe Hungary. Others are still down in the dumps for the most part, I reckon.
There again, it’s all very subjective.
According to “The World in 2003” from The Economist, GDP per capitas were:
Bulgaria 2,650
Czech Rep. 8,880
Hungary 7,690
Poland 5,120
Romania 2,380
Russia 2,730
Slovakia 4,900
Ukraine 979
Compared to 29,360 for the UK and 18,710 for Spain.
All values in US Dollars.
By: ink - 3rd February 2003 at 17:11
RE: Eastern Europe
You’re asking a pretty broad question there – maybe you should be more country-specific.
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February 3, 2003 at 4:29 pm