eBay Alert – RAF Tangmere Sign

Tangmere & sour grapes

Damien – I bear no resentful grudge or sour grapes against the museum or, really, the people that now run it. There is nobody there now who was involved with me at day one, and nobody, really, who started the protracted legal hassles. Rather, those there now saw a bit of sense and realised that there needed to be a resolution. To that end an agreement was settled upon, including costs, and this was embodied into an enforceable court order. All very regretable, but now its time to move on. Sadly, it cost the museum dearly in terms of money and lost exhibits when the status quo could have been maintained, the Trust would have had lots more cash in the bank and all the exhibits could have stayed under a proper agreement but sadly things got way way beyond that possibility. As for the posting by XTANGOMIKE (not me!) what he said was correct but you misunderstand. This dispute dates back many many years. When it began the runway was still there…and before then there were very REAL possibilities of making Tangmere a rather different place. But that is now history, sadly. When I can be bothered I will add a posting to clarify one or two things that have not been clarified or corrected yet. Lets just say there is an awful lot of supposition and putting together two and two and coming up with eleventythree. That can be very damaging and offensive and is a terminal bore, really. Andy Saunders

Lion Rock – I think it all comes down to collecting policy. The current one seems to be post war equipment and whilst being interesting it can result in a museum which is somewhat bland. I would dearly love to see the tower restored but I guess that revolves around the ownership of said item.

I agree Tangmere could and should have been a marvellous working museum rather than as one put it ” stuffed with silent exhibits and run by people whio know little or nothing”.

My experience of recent visitors is that there is nothing of the time they were there in the mid 1950s when Meteors etc whistled around the place, and there is much dissapointment that there seems only to be interest in the Red Hunter, not one exhibit does a good museum make. A good museum is one which revolves and changes its exhibits and displays to keep the same people coming back – take note IWM North, oh yes sorry crazy building design, can’t do that. That does not mean changes in aircraft, just display stands covering a different theme.

Is there any chance that Tangmere Museum could do this to make those ex-Meteor age people – and others – happy again?

Thank you Cees!

Cees – just want to say a big thank you for your kind words. Best wishes, Andy Saunders

Ok, Ok, I retract what I said, but it was supposed to be a bit tongue in cheek compared to some of the vitreol on this thread, sorry Mr Saunders, carry on the good work, now I know what you are really doing.

OK chaps,

Now we that out of of the way 😉 may we please congratulate Andy for having discovered the digital highway and this forum and welcome him. I would 😀

Cheers Andy for what you have been doing these past decades. A good example for us all. Now, you must have enless stories to tell about the many many recoveries………….. 😮

Cees

Ok, Ok, I retract what I said, but it was supposed to be a bit tongue in cheek compared to some of the vitreol on this thread, sorry Mr Saunders, carry on the good work, now I know what you are really doing.

Reply to Stuart Gowans

Stuart – If the RR Merlin has been “exchanged” by the group member who recovered it then I am unaware but there is no reason why I should have been and I have no problem or issue with that particularly. Equally, we are likely to recover some other Battle’s and I would like to think they may yield parts for the RAF Museum restoration by Medway/Lewis Deal and, obviously, before the howls of protest at no cost to them. Equally, I was able to put back to its rightful place a number of the Bristol Bulldog parts at Hendon…and gave the 109 E there a right pair of wheels and tyres instead of the car wheels it once had. Myteam meber, PeterDimond, gavethe front turret for the Wimpey. So all I ask is that people stop the mud slinging and give a bit of credit. As for the suggestion that the prop hub and blade has been offered for sale, or sold, that is not true or anywhere near true. I still “own” it and the single blade was restored and given back by me to the village of Lamaronde and is the subject of posting by Mark 12. The current custodian who is looking after it for me has asked several times if he can acquire it but has been told it is not available….which it is not! Neither has it ever been offered to any other third party and no sum has EVER been talked about and the point is wholly irrelevant. Andy Saunders

If you read my post again you will see that it is the engine that has changed hands ;The engine was “traded” for a DB601 and the prop hub and blade were in the same container in High halden, I understand that one of your group was the “owner” of the engine at this time. The owner of the property (who we both know) said that the vendor of the hub and blade (you) was after £1800- for the hub and blade. Now if that is incorrect then I too will apoogise, however this is not a rumour or a myth it is “first hand”. Trading items with someone who is going to “move them on” (be it in another trade or else for cash) is the same as selling them as far as I am concerned; especially if items that were received (as trades) for the original ones are then sold. I got a PM from xtangomike (whoever they are) last week explaining the world of Tangmere to me; as I said in my reply they should post their comments on this thread so that a balance might be achieved. I have no issue with ownership ,and as you know I have purchased several items from you without cause for concern. Digging things out of the ground is another matter altogether ,and I feel strongly that something should be given back, (especially if said items are sold ) you have done your bit and I applauded you for that

No apology here then?

Having reviewed all these postings which mostly happened whilst I was away deviously and covertly putting up a memorial in France to that Fairey Battle crew I could not help but read this one. I will reply off line to you but feel you might wish to reconsider your comment about “….the obviously devious Mr Saunders.” If you have that opinion, fine…nothing I can do about that. However, there is something I can do about it if you voice that publicly as you have done. My solicitor is quite happy to serve a writ for libel, since the laws of libel apply to the internet too. Like Black Panther who has done the decent thing you may wish to reconsider your inappropriate remarks and act accordingly? Sorry….but I have kept quiet too long. Eventually I was prodded once too much. Can you blame me for biting back chaps? Andy Saunders
PS – I am only just getting the hang of these postings and its difficult too when seeing through a red mist! However, this post relates to post No 90 in this thread from Pete Truman on 25 April 06. A.S.

Wrong again….!!!

Sorry Stuart, but I have kept quiet too long. This time it is my blood that is boiling and not Black Panther whom I thank, by the way, for his retraction and apology. As to you telling me that “…you know how much the prop blade with its bullet hole and the engine made…” well I am sorry but you are quite wrong. Why? Well it made NOTHING. Why is that? Well, the bullet holed propellor blade and hub is still in my hands and has never been sold and the RR Merlin is in the hands of another team member. So, please, stop peddling rumours and rubbish. PLEEEEASE….?? As for the other blade, that is restored and back in the village and yes, Mark 12 is right, I happily paid for the plaque and mounting of the blade. Never mind….if I keep on selling all these station sign boards and medal collections (ha!) I might even get some of my money back. Oh and then there was the memorial to P/O A W Clark, another to a B-26 crew….oh never mind. Pee’d off? Moi? Just wish people would check FACTS and not blindly repeat rumours! Andy Saunders

I am pleased to hear that the afore mentioned gentlemen have funded this plaque, I know that from a Fairy Battle dig (possibly this one) last year the engine and prop hub and a blade (complete with bullet hole) were recovered. I know what the engine made ,and the asking price for the prop hub and blade, and I think this is a fitting tribute to pay. I would like to see all future (and some past) “digs” approached in this way . If the history of the A/C and its crew were unknown ,the value of recoverd items (both historical as well as financial) would be very much reduced. I myself am happy to buy crash recovered items (although only usable ones) ,and have sold a few as well (unusable); market value dictates what an item is worth, and provenance increases that value, but money is being made “hand over fist” in some cases, and its good to see something given back.

Black Panther,it takes a brave man to apologise ,well done.

Prognosis:
If you form a museum, do not form a charitable status, and allow those who were never involved in the original project, to take over and form an old boys club!

As it is now, it is stuffed full of silent exhibits and very few personnel who know anything of their real history.

Pity to read that this is thus not only happening in Holland but everywhere around the globe 😡

We have had the same experience with our own museum where people who have nothing in common with those who started the organisation in the early days, thought it necessary to wage some sort of personal war against those who run the whole organisation. After having “persuaded” these pioneers to leave only a few remained who knew what they were talking about and had to keep up with those irritating nitswits.

And they said it’s a hobby…………….

Andy Sauders is one of my heroes and got me starting in Aviation Archeaology in the first place.

Cheers

Cees

P.s. Black Panther, good on you to admit being wrong.

Poor show black-panther.

Mark

Tangmere Museum sign

I would like to take this opportunity if I may to public Apologize to Mr Andy Saunders for the comments I wrote with reference to Medals given to him by Mrs Akroyd on The EBay Alert -RAF Tangmere Sign Posting. After speaking to Mr Saunders today I now have a clear picture of the situation. And maybe next time I will think before I write. I would also like to Apologize to any of Mr Saunders friends for bad mouthing him.
Mr R.J.Rooker 11.05.06

And you managed to get back in?

Well we managed to drink a lot of that French ‘fizzy’ wine. 🙂

Mark

And you managed to get back in?

Is Mr Peter Diamond back in the U.K now – always wanted to know more about the Lysander /Bomingbroke parts he allegedly brought to the U.K

David,

Yes he is indeed. I was with him over the weekend and with the ‘dastardly’ Mr Saunders, in France.

Do you know they had the audacity to fund and have made a commemorative plaque and permanent monument to two fallen warriors of a Fairey Battle excavated at the the small township of Lamaronde. :rolleyes:

Mark

Is Mr Peter Diamond back in the U.K now – always wanted to know more about the Lysander /Bolingbroke parts he allegedly brought to the U.K

Thanks for re-posting that Mark, it puts a much better perspective on the whole affair.

Another side to this story.

No reply yet 😡 Just as I thought Mr Saunders You are Lower then the Low, your Scum in My eyes People like you make me bloody sick to the back teeth. I hope you got a good price for them 🙁 Your a bloody disgrace, I bet you if I sent you Mrs Akroyd address you would’nt have the balls to tell her 😮 I hope We never meet up….
Sorry about all that but this Bloke makes My bloody Boil…

Cheers Rob……

I have taken the liberty to copy and paste xtangomike’s response from General Discussion and post it here.

Poor show black-panther.

Mark

Tangmere Museum sign

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As an original founder member of Tangmere Military Aviation Museum, I write this to allow you to consider the facts about the sign, which was the Ltd Co’s property long before the trust was formed.

Tangmere Museum was originally founded under the leadership of Jim Beadle (Author of ’43 Squadron Fighting Cocks’). Jim served as senior ground crew with 43 Sqd and made it his quest to found a museum in memory of all those who fought and died from Tangmere during WW11. In the late 1970’s he encouraged a group of young aviation archaeologists to join together with their items of B of B aircraft bits, and open up the original decrepit buildings still used by the museum today. In 1980, Jim approached the Tangmere council and negotiated a peppercorn lease for the buildings and some of the surrounding land. To get started, his group of enthusiasts dug in their pockets and funded as best they could, the reclamation and decor of the first hall. As much WW11 memorabilia and aircraft parts that were available between the helpers and their friends was put on display, and a ‘cloth cap’ served as a till on the weekends the museum was open. A Ltd company was formed with Jim as the first Director of Tangmere Military Museum Ltd. and over a period of the next 6 years, the museum matured and grew to become a nationally recognised wartime aviation musem of great interest.
This did not happen by chance. One of the ‘group of enthusiasts’ that Jim had seconded was Andy Saunders. He was a major contributor of his own personnel items in the early days and was appointed curator and director of the museum by his fellow helpers and Jim Beadle. Without his efforts of many long week end hours, as well as time in between his work and away from his then young family in Hastings, Tangmere museum would not have had the wealth of items on show, the publicity required, the new High Speed Hanger with the Hunter, Meteor and many of the exhibits still there today. As a Ltd Co. it was necessary to give guarantees to the bank for a loan to expand and develop the museum. Andy put his house up as part of the collateral required for the loan, along with others who dug deep to finance the project. All this and more from an ever growing band of enthusiasts ( of which there are none present at the museum today), brought the museum to a status of becoming a trust The trust was formed in 1987 and a trust council was formed. A large percentage of the exhibits were privately owned by the original Ltd Co., who had bought them with the income raised on the door, and it was decided by all concerned to leave them on display at no cost to the new trust. Legal advice was sought concerning the ownership of the items and that advice was that the Ltd company should retain ownership and control of those items collected before 1987. This was agreed by all those concerned until 1993 when the then chairman of the trust and his council cohorts decided renege on that agreement, and maintain that the trust should own and control those items. A high court writ was issued by the trust against the original Ltd Co. and over the next 12 years the trust wasted in excess of £35,000 on solicitors, barristers and court fees, to lose a case which they had been advised in the first place, it could not win.
The original Ltd Co had to defend each court action as it arose and was responsible for for its own defence costs even though the courts had given a majority of the costs against the Trust.
When at last in 2005, common sense amongst new trust councillors prevailed, the court order was obeyed, and the remains of the original exhibits ( many of which had been ‘lost’ during the period) were handed over to the remaining directors of the Ltd Co. of which Andy Saunders was one.
The Tangmere sign was one of those items deemed by the courts as belonging to the original Ltd Co. It was offered back to the museum for all the reasons stated by the Forum writers. However, the new trust decided decided they could not afford the asking price (not surprising after the money already wasted on legal fees) and it was again offered as a swap for something of equal value. This was also refused.
The blame for the past lies squarely with the Chairman and councillors who chose to try and ‘grab’ the disputed items after being told legally that they belonged to the Ltd co. The financial cost to the Trust for that decision, might interest the Charity Commissioners if they were ever told the truth.
The items sold on Ebay have helped pay the cost of outstanding defence solicitor’s fees and for the wind up of the original Ltd Company.
There are virtually none of the original-founding members left from the early days.

Prognosis:
If you form a museum, do not form a charitable status, and allow those who were never involved in the original project, to take over and form an old boys club!
Tangmere could have been a progressive flying museum by now, with active restoration on site and the use of a runway for fly in’s, aeromarts, conference hall, etc.
As it is now, it is stuffed full of silent exhibits and very few personnel who know anything of their real history.