Ejections… and the consequences.

I’ve addressed this subject with a few people who have ejected using modern seats, as well as several who used what we’d consider antiques available during the 1960s-70s.

None reported more than minor injuries.

As far as the “Consequences” of ejections, the worst of of those who I’ve met was spending several years being tortured by their captors.

Still, whatever the consequences, most injuries would be better than what awaits the crew if they don’t eject.

Hi Fouga

Thanks for the link just responding to what I remember.Interesting reading a lot of it was in my training but only worked from MK10 but they gave us an idea about JP’s etc.

http://www.martin-baker.com/Sub-Navigation/History/Resources.aspx
Some interesting reading

John

As I said only a guess was thinking the early seats don’t get the height of the rocket powered seats may be a combination of both when did MDC first get installed.

Jon

Jon,

Wouldn’t it be height and not forward speed that is required to fill the chute?, IIRC the forward speed was so that the canopy would be blown clear of the aircraft by the wind (most canopies were not ejected but merely pushed open and then the wind speed would do the rest).

Regards,

John.

Hi Guys

Did courses on bang seats in the 80’s
From what I can remember regarding the zero speed/zero height scenario the seats are powered biassed slightly left or right in the case of a two seater one go’s one way the other the other way.If I rememeber correctly this seperated the crew by around 100m from the ‘burning aircraft’.
The 90mph min speed on the earlier models may be to give the parachute chance to fill and slow the descent but this is just a guess.

Cheers

Jon

Re Craig Penrice ejection, IIRC prior to the Hunter ejection and whilst he was in the RAF made a supersonic ejection from Lightning XS921.

It took him nearly a year to return to flying status after having lots of metalwork fitted to bolt him back together, the list of injuries on this occasion would put any sane man off flying ever again!.

http://www.ejectorseats.co.uk/Lightningf6_1.html

Although he would have been passed off as fit to fly there would be no doubt that his previous injuries would not have helped when he ejected from the Hunter.

Regards,

John.

2 Pics at 2 FTS 1962, copyright G Sutcliffe, face removed to protect the innocent (well we were in those days !)

The rig was on the back of a lorry (Queen Mary ?). It used a half charge so that no-one was hurt, and you had to be observed to do it right, a good thing should you ever need it in reality. IIRC 50% chance of back damage with these early seats in an ejection, and they were not zero/zero.

The worst thing on the rig was when the motion ceased it was all quiet, and then you looked down from under the hood/handle between your knees to the ground miles below whilst gently swaying in the breeze !

There used to be a “bang seat” Training Rig that toured the Bomber Command stations in the mid-50’s. The odd adventurous Met Man got a “ride” in this. There was also a mobile decompression chamber. The odd adventurous Met Man also got to be decompressed (sometimes explosively) in this , or demonstrated the symptoms of anoxia! When I had got all my “Ticks in the Boxes” I asked for a Familiarisation Flight (normal Met Office staff procedure). All sorts of obstacles were put in my way but eventually, after signing more Blood Chits than you can imagine, I got my Fam Flight!
But what I’m getting at was that on the Training Rig the harness, etc, was tensioned by the Techies, and when you’d come down the Doc asked all sorts of questions about what you’d experienced, and which bits of you (if any!) hurt. Was this normal?
Was this just Bomber Command, or was it in use in Fighter Command where, I suspect, it’s services may have been of more use?!!!!!!!!!!!!
Probably accounts for my advancing senility!!!!!
Rgds
Resmoroh

Did Mr Penrose make a full recovery?-I didn’t realise he was so badly injured

This site is dedicated to ejections and makes interesting reading.

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/index.htm

the other thing to remember is aircraft type and relative space. the single seat hunter is very narrow cockpit wise, so the chance of injury on the way out is hightened too.

A very good point, I can’t imagine any ejection being less than terrifying, but when you try and compare a nav ejecting from a Canberra where the hatch has been fired, and the aircraft is under the safe and steady control of the pilot, to a pilot ejecting from the narrow, and obstacle ridden cockpit of a Hunter losing control, they are very different scenerios.

In the very early days the chance of injury was great, I know a pilot who had to eject from a Meteor and he says he was lucky to get away with his lower legs still attached.

It amazes me though just how quickly ejector seats evolved to the ever changing requirements and performances of aircraft.

not sure that it is desirable though.

I suppose the danger is that you parachute back into the burning wreck you just ejected from !!!

Is there a minimum height you can eject? like can you on the runway?

Or a maximum height?

Some of the old seats, with the introduction of the 80 ft/sec gun, allowed ejection from ground level but only with a minimum of 90 knots of forward speed.

I think from the first zero zero seats, it is safe to eject from the ground and not moving, not sure that it is desirable though.

Is there a minimum height you can eject? like can you on the runway?

Or a maximum height?

I guess pilots who fly modern jets would not even consider using the face/top handle,more recent seats (than [say] the hunter) do not have a top handle …they only have the lower/seat firing handle which is supposed to straighten up the ejectees back and bring his shoulders back into the seat back,and is easier to reach during certain a/c ‘manoevers’ if out of control
.
I did speak with a Martin Baker engineer some years ago,he reckoned looseish lap straps caused the ejectee to ‘submarine’ down in the seat,I think also overtight shoulder straps can cause posture problems.

rgds baz

If I understand it correctly, I think in Geoffs case there was ample time to ready the aircraft for the emergency and set it up for good conditions for ejection, ie straight and level, good speed and height etc.

I gather that was also the case with Craig Penrice’s ejection from XF516, although height and speed were decaying. The reports suggest he did a couple of things ‘wrong’ though – he overtightened his seat harness which meant that there was so much friction in the QRB that the automatic man-seat separation mechanism couldn’t work.

It’s been suggested that what had a more direct effect on his back injuries however was his use of the seat pan firing handle rather than the recommended upper handle. In theory the use of the upper handle puts the body in a better position to handle the stresses of a ballistic seat ejection – straight neck/back, head back on headrest etc.. An 80ft/sec ejection gun delivers all it’s, not inconsiderable, force in a very short space of time. Although the gun uses 2 separate charges which fire in sequence (to give a slightly more progressive push) it’s still virtually one big thump compared to modern rocket seats which are a much (relatively speaking) gentler ride. If the spine in particular is not in a good position to absorb the force then injuries are very likely.

It seems that there are so many factors that can have an effect on post-ejection injury levels, certainly with the old ballistic seats, that it’s a bit of a lottery.

I believe pilots used to be stopped from flying bang seat equipped aircraft after a certain number of ejections. Is that still the case nowadays with rocket seats?

craig was unlucky with his circumstances. he suffered more injuries because 1)he used the seat pan pull,which results in a poorer posture, and increases the chances of back injury 2) it was a bang seat, rather than a rocket seat, rocket seats are gentler 3) his wrist hit the cockpit sill on the way out 4) the pan separation malfunctioned, significantly increasing his velocity on the way down from 2000ft. The seat only seperated at 300 ft via him activating the qrf handle manually, so he was dropping far faster than normal, and hit terra firma much harder. this happened because he tensioned his lap straps too far, effectively locking out the seat pan. Compounded on top of that, he thaught he was landing in deep water, when in fact he landed in 8 inches of water, smashing his already badly injured back further. the other thing to remember is aircraft type and relative space. the single seat hunter is very narrow cockpit wise, so the chance of injury on the way out is hightened too.

Yes thats sounds like the case. Be interesting to know if anyone has ejected in similar straight and level circumstances, but still ended up severely injured… and from which aircraft?!