Emirates B777-300ER Stuck in Singapore

I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what, if anything, Boeing find out of the ordinary.

Don’t forget that the 777 has something called Thrust Asymmetric Compensation (TAC) which recognises a difference between the two engines’ fan speed and hence automatically adjusts the rudder to compensate during, for example, an engine failure.

Although, unlikely to be the cause of this problem, it could be something to take into account.

So theoretically a software failure of this system could of caused such an incident?

I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what, if anything, Boeing find out of the ordinary.

Don’t forget that the 777 has something called Thrust Asymmetric Compensation (TAC) which recognises a difference between the two engines’ fan speed and hence automatically adjusts the rudder to compensate during, for example, an engine failure.

Although, unlikely to be the cause of this problem, it could be something to take into account.

…The other thing to remember is that the B777 is a fly-by-wire aicraft, despite having the conventional yoke. Perhaps wysiwyg could enlighten us a tad more. but couldnt it be a computer fault instead of a part made by Parker Hannifin?

From what I have read the 777 is only actually fly by wire in pitch (elevator control). AFAIK it has conventional ailerons and rudders. My source of this info was last weeks Flight International which I read in a bit of a hurry so if I am wrong please correct me.

It’s an interesting fact that both the big 2 manufacturers have had significant but different problems with rudders.

Also…I have a family connection here as my uncle sits second from the top at Parker Hannifin. 😮

Unfortunately with ‘bean counters’ running companies these days the only figure that matters is the bottom line. Companies rarely instigate a safety mod for a ‘potential’ problem because it costs. Only when the problem has been clearly demonstrated to have caused an accident will governing bodies force companies to do so and this process can take some time.

There is an old saying “if you think aviation safety is expensive, then try having an accident” Any money spent on safety is insignificant compared to what an accident will cost a company.

If you want to build your case on that premise then consider this.

Every single time a Boeing plane crashes, Boeing is sued and looses and pays. This is regardless of the fault determined, be it weather, act of god, pilot error or suicide, a terrorist or what not. This happens so often, Boeing even has a dedicated sum of money put aside for this.

Paying up and not challenging does not automatically mean guilt. Sometimes its just the best way to deal with the issue.

Everybody has this type of insurance, my father has it as a Barrister, my Uncle has it as an accoutant, and i have it, and i’m sure every large,medium and small business has some type of protection against claims and law suits.

Parker Hannifin agreed to payout over the silkair crashes,but did not accept liability. and also the agreement was to keep the payout amount undisclosed.

I’m sure Boeing and Parker Hannifin came to some sort of agreement, as losing each other would be costly to both of them!

The other thing to remember is that the B777 is a fly-by-wire aicraft, despite having the conventional yoke. Perhaps wysiwyg could enlighten us a tad more. but couldnt it be a computer fault instead of a part made by Parker Hannifin?

A…….
If Parker-Hannifin was not to blame then why did they not challenge the evidence and not pay out such high amounts of money to the families

Wozza

If you want to build your case on that premise then consider this.

Every single time a Boeing plane crashes, Boeing is sued and looses and pays. This is regardless of the fault determined, be it weather, act of god, pilot error or suicide, a terrorist or what not. This happens so often, Boeing even has a dedicated sum of money put aside for this.

Paying up and not challenging does not automatically mean guilt. Sometimes its just the best way to deal with the issue.

If the Silk Air incident was suicide, then no-one but the pilot was to blame. But that leads to more questions. Hadn’t the CVR had a history of switching itself off in the past for periods of between 4 seconds and 11 minutes duration IIRC? Wasn’t a Company involved with the devices which actuate the rudder taken to court and made a settlement to the victims families?

The evidence for suicide was not strong enough to be certain. The same cannot be said of the company involved with the rudder, otherwise they would have appealed atthe highest level and never made a settlement.

The plain truth is that none of us will ever know what really happened. The crew took the secret to their graves.

Edited to add: Perhaps the most compelling evidence of uncommanded rudder hardovers being a problem with 737’s comes from Boeing. Didn’t the programme indicate that a training programme had been instigated and advice issued as to what course of action to take in the event of a rudder hardover?

PS I stand to be corrected on the above, as my memory may not be correct.

Regards,

kev35

All three crashes were shown to follow the procedure issued by Boeing in the event of such Rudder Hard-Overs and the problem was found to be a manufacturing issue with the units, some microscopic metal residue from cutting clogged holes allowing hydraulic fluid to flow,

If Parker-Hannifin was not to blame then why did they not challenge the evidence and not pay out such high amounts of money to the families

Wozza

If the Silk Air incident was suicide, then no-one but the pilot was to blame. But that leads to more questions. Hadn’t the CVR had a history of switching itself off in the past for periods of between 4 seconds and 11 minutes duration IIRC? Wasn’t a Company involved with the devices which actuate the rudder taken to court and made a settlement to the victims families?

The evidence for suicide was not strong enough to be certain. The same cannot be said of the company involved with the rudder, otherwise they would have appealed atthe highest level and never made a settlement.

The plain truth is that none of us will ever know what really happened. The crew took the secret to their graves.

Edited to add: Perhaps the most compelling evidence of uncommanded rudder hardovers being a problem with 737’s comes from Boeing. Didn’t the programme indicate that a training programme had been instigated and advice issued as to what course of action to take in the event of a rudder hardover?

PS I stand to be corrected on the above, as my memory may not be correct.

Regards,

kev35

I once read that somewhere in the world there is a 737 rotating every 3 seconds

I read a commerical aircraft lands or departs ever 4 seconds of which an Airbus lands or departs every 12 seconds

If we are still talking about the Silk Air crash then after watching the Air Crash Investigation on the subject evidence for the rudder hard over being the cause it seems pretty definitive in my eyes that this was the cause,

Wozza

He was in debt of $100,000 and already had several close shaves with death in the past whilst flying.

Not forgetting that the cockpit voice recorder was turned off (it wasn’t the first time he’d done this in his career either), then the autopilot was manually disconnected shortly before the aircraft rolled over into it’s descent and then the throttles were set to full power.

Now if that isn’t commiting suicide, what the hell is?…

I still think the third was suicide and that the Captain thought people would automatically believe it was a rudder hardover as the previous two incidents had happened not too long before…

If we are still talking about the Silk Air crash then after watching the Air Crash Investigation on the subject evidence for the rudder hard over being the cause it seems pretty definitive in my eyes that this was the cause,

Wozza

There were 3 crashes, and despite the number of rotations made by the B737, 3 crashes is 3 too many and it would be fair to say that the problem was not ‘minor’ it was large then, taking up years of investigators time.

I once read that somewhere in the world there is a 737 rotating every 3 seconds (it may have been sightly more but in that order of magnitude), and so in actual fact 3 accidents isn’t bad at all (although of course these are 3 accidents related to one problem). The fact of the matter is aircraft will crash, and its about risk levels, rather than eliminating risk altogether. If you’d like a perfectly safe plane then kiss good bye to flying, because whilst it may be possible for Boeing or Airbus to do such, the costs involved would be so prohibative that it would push development costs so high that the airlines would have to charge ridiculous fares, leaving only the top fare paying passengers able to travel.

2 crashes and 1 suspected crash

I still think the third was suicide and that the Captain thought people would automatically believe it was a rudder hardover as the previous two incidents had happened not too long before…

Oh yeah…737s were dropping out of the skies like nobody’s business.
Perhaps you should ommit the “huge”? It looks like you’re making it out to be a larger issue than what it was.

There were 2 crashes that were confirmed as full rudder hard overs. Perhaps another suspected. In how many rotations made by the 737?

2 crashes and 1 suspected crash, was enough for Boeing to issue a safety directive on uncommanded rudder hardover recovery and for the NTSB AND FAA to get boeing to change the design of the rudder movement device, with a deadline for all units to be changed by 2008. Just a shame that it took a civil court case against Parker Hannifin to get the modifications made.

After a quick search on Google, Parker Hannifin do indeed make the control units for the B777

There were 3 crashes, and despite the number of rotations made by the B737, 3 crashes is 3 too many and it would be fair to say that the problem was not ‘minor’ it was large then, taking up years of investigators time.

Indeed, 3 crashes are 3 too many. If the world were perfect we’d have no crashes.

Oh yeah…737s were dropping out of the skies like nobody’s business.
Perhaps you should ommit the “huge”? It looks like you’re making it out to be a larger issue than what it was.

There were 2 crashes that were confirmed as full rudder hard overs. Perhaps another suspected. In how many rotations made by the 737?

There were 3 crashes, and despite the number of rotations made by the B737, 3 crashes is 3 too many and it would be fair to say that the problem was not ‘minor’ it was large then, taking up years of investigators time.

Didn’t the B737 suffer from huge problems with this, resulting in a number of fatal crashes – is it Parker Hannifin that produces the B777-300ER rudder control unit.

Oh yeah…737s were dropping out of the skies like nobody’s business.
Perhaps you should ommit the “huge”? It looks like you’re making it out to be a larger issue than what it was.

There were 2 crashes that were confirmed as full rudder hard overs. Perhaps another suspected. In how many rotations made by the 737?

Emirates B777-300ER (A6-EBN) has been stuck in singapore for a few days after is suffered from an Uncommanded Rudder Movement, Boeing are sending out a team of engineers to investigate

Didn’t the B737 suffer from problems with this, resulting in a number of fatal crashes – is it Parker Hannifin that produces the B777-300ER rudder control unit.